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  • #16
    The "warlord" label is fatuous, Churchill was the political leader of the world?s premier super-power (empire) at the time of near global war. I will admit that technically/legally Britain started the war by declaring it but that was because the Germans had a nasty habit of not bothering to do so even after the shooting had started. I think I am correct in saying that the only country they ever publicly declared war on was the United States and that was mainly to keep the Jap allies happy.

    It has been well argued that Churchill had insight and comprehension of the Nazi "problem" long before the rest of the Westminster political animal had any inkling, or at least wanted to admit the problem. He made few friends and was frequently perceived as a fool for his vocal denunciation of the Nazi "menace" long before the war. When Poland fell and it was difficult for even the most cowardly to dismiss the impending conflagration Westminster rallied to him, his pervious ?sins? forgiven as their short sightedness and denial had left them running a shockingly ill prepared and weakened empire. Churchill had been responsible for the Navy in his previous political life and had continued to campaign for a strong military, this had not been maintained to a suitable level by the pre-war governments leaving the Axis forces a far larger threat than they should have been and ultimately prolonging the impending war.

    He was shockingly (especially to allies like the US) elected out of power shortly after the end of the war as people wanted a clean start after years of toil and horror. They admired him but thought him a great war leader when what they wanted now was a new socialist start. They elected him back into power some years later (with mixed results) as they felt they needed another strong leader in a time of crisis, albeit a somewhat different one.

    He was a noble man and only our change of outlook on the relative merits of ethnic/genetic difference makes us judge him harshly but it was the common outlook of the time. There had been discussion about the use of the atom bomb on Germany (had it been ready before the Nazi surrender) but it was judged to be unthinkable to use it on another Western ?civilised? nation and was reserved for use on Japan (ironically what I judge to be about the most civilised nation in the world, at least now anyway). The view that the colonies and non-caucasian races must be inferior was almost universal. An example of this was the common belief that Japanese pilots must be inferior as they could not see through their ?slitty? eyes, this was swiftly disproven at Pearl Harbour and the subsequent sinking of a British battleship and battlecruiser near Singapore whilst under full steam the very next day (this was the first time a capitol warship had been sunk by aircraft while manoeuvring and had always been thought to be impossible by many who should have known better). Ask yourself if it was worth spending the entire wealth of the world?s largest empire to fight the Germans twice, taking us from the world superpower to the poor man of Europe. Ultimately all we succeeded in doing was gifting the United States a financial empire in the space of a few short years.

    I am of the near unique opinion that whilst a great man he was also arguably a fool. Hitler never wanted war with Britiain as he admired us and thought the empire as a great controlling, policing and calming force in the world. He ?merely? wanted parity in power for Germany with England. Whilst we clearly could never have allowed that to happen I do think an opportunity to ally ourselves with Germany and carve Europe and the world up between us with missed. Equally this would probably have prevented some of worse excesses that the Germans carried out such as mass exterminations. We would finally have conquered France and we would probably still have an Empire to this day. I somehow suspect if that would have been the case we would not now have such a changed view on the races of the world and would still deem them as inferior. Make of that what you will but try to remember that you are looking at this through the value set of our current society. What I have said above is probably abhorrent to many of you but had history been different most people would possibly think exactly that way.

    Before you start screaming about the holocaust, remember the concentration camp was a British invention in the Boar war so we are just as guilty of ethnic cleansing and self denial about our actions. Churchill fought and reported on the Boar war but he certainly did not invent the concentration camp. In the past that behaviour was acceptable, or at least not talked about in polite conversation. Unsurprisingly the Germans took that idea and ?perfected? it in a way that only Germans could.
    "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Big_T_UK View Post
      Before you start screaming about the holocaust, remember the concentration camp was a British invention in the Boar war so we are just as guilty of ethnic cleansing and self denial about our actions. Churchill fought and reported on the Boar war but he certainly did not invent the concentration camp. In the past that behaviour was acceptable, or at least not talked about in polite conversation. Unsurprisingly the Germans took that idea and ?perfected? it in a way that only Germans could.
      Interesting position T and speculation of what might of been has given me some interesting thoughts today.

      I have to take issue with my perception of your comments that somehow an action is justified because someone else invented it. It comes across to me as an appoligist position and whilst the reality of some of mankind's actions are abhorrent, trying to justify them is even worse.

      If I run over a German with my car is that OK because Karl Benz invented it ...I just perfected its use as a killing machine?

      If Pakistan invade India is that ok because the British already did it?

      Does the action of our ancestors justify the actions of others ...are you really negating our ability to learn and/or evolve. By such standards it is justifiable for me to come with my club, hit your woman over the head and drag her back to my cave ...after all I didn't invent it.

      I suspect the bigger issue when anyone attempts to justify genocide is the manifestation of the inherent prejudice we all suffer from (to a greater or lesser extent) that is normally based around actual or cultural defence, or (in it's most base interpretation) survival instinct.

      To have prejudice is inevitable, to master it is honourable, to act on it is questionable, and to kill for it is unforgivable.
      Originally posted by Simon Bolivar
      Little medical correction there Steve, you will surely die...but not from smoking these

      Originally posted by Ryan
      I think that's for lighting electronic cigarettes

      Comment


      • #18
        Either you misunderstood what I was trying to say or a worded it poorly, the latter is more likely as I wrote it in a hurry.

        I am neither trying to justify or condemn anything, I do not feel the need or authority to pass a judgment on what is correct or wrong, this is for several reasons.

        What you may judge to be ?correct? may be different to mine, who is to judge who is the more correct?

        The actions discussed happened forty or more years before I was born in a very different time with different values. My passing any sort of moral judgement on it is not only pointless it is also inane. Any ?moral? judgement? I make now will be out of date another forty years down the road and thought of as barbaric or similar. At the time of the events discussed in the article those actions were deemed appropriate. So be it. All I am trying to say is if history had played out a little differently what we are now judging as abhorrent might seem as common sense.

        Is the killing of another man inherently wrong? Not in my option. If anything it seems natural. We are merely animals who fight and kill each other with increasingly efficient and expensive methods. In the stone-age one man killed another for his woman, food, possession etc. In the Second World War we did the same but on a larger scale. Progress has merely given us uniforms, rifles and tanks.

        I am unfortunate enough to live in a society whose morals appear illogical and irrational to me, largely as they are inherited from a Christian source. I am in no position to judge anybodies else?s moral values as nobody is in a position to judge mine. Morals are entirely a construct of the human mind; nothing is inherently right or wrong.

        If the annexing of another nation is required to make the lives of my fellow countrymen better then great, let?s do it. I have no emotional investment in the people in the other country, I do not know them. To improve the lives of the people I know and care about (read emotional investment in) seems logical to me, Darwinian even. To pretend I care about somebody I do not even know seem simply dishonest, do I shed a tear for every person that dies every day, no, do you?

        The human psyche is inherently selfish, simply the way organic life is. Even charitable acts that people do are selfish. People do charitable deeds because it satisfies a need, relieves guilt or simply makes them feel good, nothing is truly selfless. The fact that humans act this way is understandable when viewed from an evolutionary point of view. Mankind evolved the ?need? for religion, charity and empathy as it made building ?societies? more likely. Prehistoric man was more likely to survive and procreate in a harsh and competitive environment if he lived as a group rather than as an individual. ?Caring? for each other in a group meant your children are more likely to grow up and carry on that genetic line. The need that people have shown throughout history for a creationist myth and group building can be seen as a logical result of human evolution/natural selection from this perspective.

        I am rambling and explain myself poorly. All I am saying is it appears pointless to judge historical events by the morals of today as much as saying that any one set of moral codes is correct or wrong. People?s horror at what Churchill said or did seems overly dramatic, overly emotional and pointless to me. Did he win the war? Yes. In a way the question should more accurately be ?did his societal group win over the other societal group and procreate more successfully?? The answer to that question is debatable given the economic history of Europe but if the answer is yes then his actions must therefore be justifiable.
        "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

        Comment


        • #19
          Good answer T, lots of food for thought. I do however think that it is reasonable to judge events after they took place, I think we all do and in many cases fundamentally need to (after all 'after the event' is the time-line for all learning).

          I think it is potentially naive to have a discussion on such emotive and relatively recent events and feel it is appropriate for it to be a purely intellectual discussion. One could even argue (following on from your observations on human psyche) that it is human nature to have an opinion in some way.

          Even allowing for 'the time' there are often pretty clear cases of right and wrong, IMHO pretty much all genocide falls into the 'wrong' camp. I would suggest regarding the holocaust this was still true 70 years ago.

          On a personal level I care for every life, I am flawed like all of us, could spend less on sticks and give more to charity but I try hard to do my fair share for those less fortunate than me. I think the only hope for mankind is to evolve to a point where we feed everyone before we kill each other ...You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
          Originally posted by Simon Bolivar
          Little medical correction there Steve, you will surely die...but not from smoking these

          Originally posted by Ryan
          I think that's for lighting electronic cigarettes

          Comment


          • #20
            True and emotional analysis of events is a very human thing. I can say honestly that I care about those that died in the holocaust but only as much as a I care for those that died at Agincourt or the Battle of Hastings. I fail to feel more for somebody that died seventy years before my death than seven hundred. It is still a human life irrelevant of when it was.

            I should be as harsh a judge on Alexander the Great and his actions as I am Churchill?

            I do not agree about fundamental things being right or wrong. I refuse to judge others moral values and do not expect mine to be judged. Nobody and nothing is the authority on such things.
            "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

            Comment


            • #21
              IMHO the refusal to judge other's moral values is only within a set range (it's a nice concept but so are many things ...in concept).

              Once those values impact one own life judgement and reaction are surely inevitable?

              Could I suggest your last paragraph is a contradiction in terms. In your 'judgement' "Nobody and nothing is the authority on such things" ....I know it's not your intention but how does that potential judgement differ from any of the others discussed here?
              Originally posted by Simon Bolivar
              Little medical correction there Steve, you will surely die...but not from smoking these

              Originally posted by Ryan
              I think that's for lighting electronic cigarettes

              Comment


              • #22
                Again poor choice of words and I suspect you do not really expect an answer to your last question.
                "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  ....anyway, say what you like about Churchill but he made some damn nice cigars
                  Originally posted by Simon Bolivar
                  Little medical correction there Steve, you will surely die...but not from smoking these

                  Originally posted by Ryan
                  I think that's for lighting electronic cigarettes

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    LOL
                    "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by monkey66 View Post
                      ....anyway, say what you like about Churchill but he made some damn nice cigars
                      I suppose some would have preferred a Hitler vitola, rolled by aryan hands?

                      Partagas Hitler deluxe? RyJ short Hitler? etc.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The contradiction between morality and the evolutionary rationalization of human existence is of some interest and, in fact, I believe, closely related to cigars and similarly "noble" pastimes! Big_T, yes, you can dispute that there even is contradiction, by retracing morals to biological egotism, but bear with me .

                        Man (and, for the politically conscious, please note that I am using "man" to mean "human") has long felt a specific "guilt" for his mammalian roots: For example, while nutrition is a fundamentally natural activity we make every effort to "elevate it" via etiquette and decorum. Similarly, we pursue "refinement" in clothing, art, drink, tobacco, and, not least, relationships. Fundamentally, when we enjoy a sip of scotch or a favourite cigar we stimulate the pleasure centers of our brain. However, these mechanisms for pleasure require going through a, rather displeasing, period of training (learning to smoke, to drink). That we subject ourselves to the initial displeasure of smoking or of adhering to table manners, and so forth, suggests a deep-seated desire to dissociate from the clarity of our biological role: we are willing to lose comfort and to expend energy upon the promise of a satisfaction that we classify above and beyond what other animals can experience. The underlying theme is that we need to elevate all aspects of our existence and especially those that may be uncomfortably similar to other animals.

                        I think that it is through a similar mechanism that we, more or less, accept a common denominator of morality: Most of us are appalled by gruesome violence, "unjustified" cruelty; even the bravest veterans will refrain from discussing the horrors of war. This aversion to what we commonly find immoral is of similar origin to the disapproval of someone who picks his nose at the table: both remind us of our, still strong, evolutionary roots.

                        So, while morality may often be argued as subjective, "good form" is rarely debatable. I would argue that the more advanced it is, the less "immoral" a state needs to be in achieving its goals - acting, rather, in "good form" but equally effectively and without reminding everyone that they are, regrettably, still closely related to the rest of the animal kingdom.

                        Now, having said all that, I would agree that it has been quite some time since Churchill and I would add that the table manners of superpowers have slightly improved; perhaps, we are moving on.
                        Costas

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                        • #27
                          Jebus!! This is a deep thread. I'm too lazy to follow any of this. I might be quicker reading Churchill's WW2 memoirs...

                          I'm only here for the cigars and the pussy....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Smallclub View Post
                            I suppose some would have preferred a Hitler vitola, rolled by aryan hands?

                            Partagas Hitler deluxe? RyJ short Hitler? etc.

                            I will take fifty boxes please!!!!
                            "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Big_T_UK View Post
                              I will take fifty boxes please!!!!
                              Why am I not surprised?
                              It amazes me how a man with a certain lifestyle can be a Nazi sympathiser.
                              Lover of fine Cubans since 2006

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The best guns, uniforms and political rallies known to man, those guys knew how to party.
                                "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock!"

                                Comment

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