Smacking and Caning

[Soulmanure]

I'm avoiding your question for the moment, Soul, though I would be interested to know which other forms of dissuasion you would propose. I like to believe that teenagers are civilised and will respond to reasoning. I do know very well that isn't always the case.

The background climate in my trade is one where teachers listen for twilight sessions to sociological explanations about how appalling kid behaviour is related to neglect or weak parenting in the first two or three years of a kid's life.

I do find this fascinating - always have done - but we, as professionals, sit there (after the obligatory touchy feely caring whispers to left and pairwork icebreaker right) wondering when the punchline will come.

Like...

So we know some of their parents may have Larkinly fucked them up...

So now what do we do about it?

So far there have been no proposals.



Over coffee, we resort to jokey chats about eugenics. You just have to.

It gets frustrating, you know.


The decent and polite and properly behaved kids are overlooked by teachers who have to deal with the drossy, disruptive and often aggressive ones. It can be a shambles.


I, too, wanted to get something off my chest.

I hear you on this--I'm a high school teacher, and I deal with snarky, self-centered students all day. Indeed, I find that the whole mantra of the last three or so decades, in which every child is special and deserves praise, to be not simply false, but damaging to these kids. They've been told for too long that simply breathing is an accomplishment, and the country has turned into a sort of Special Olympics of self-congratulation. From this, children learn only frustration as the the demands of reality show them that they fail and no one is there to congratulate them.

That being said, I think violence would accomplish more a personal sense of retribution than an actual end to the ridiculous behavior of students (generally--in certain instances, no doubt, it will have an effect). My sense is that there are three arenas where this issue ought to be handled, and as teacher, I have access to only one at the end of the day.

1) Parents. Unfortunately, it's harder to get a driver's license than a whole slew of children, so this is a tough area.
2) Culture. It's pretty clear that high achieving cultures, at least academically, have higher levels of respect not simply for their elders, but for the idea of culture and learning itself. I can only speak for the States, but here, academic pursuits tend to only be utilitarian--the ultimate question is not the good of what the Germans call Bildung, but what kind of paycheck it will get me.
3) School. Obviously, this ties into the first two, but it's here that one can try to achieve what the jargon terms 'classroom management', which is really a function of classroom control. This has been the most difficult aspect of my job, and it is what makes this job the most difficult I've ever had (I think it's also what makes many people run away from the career like it's a form of leprosy). Here I think it comes down to the teacher--there are teachers who can control their classrooms by keeping them in order, and there are those that cannot, and this is without the use of violent responses. I've found, over the years, that providing consequences, a demand for respect, and treating students as adults who will have to suffer their consequences, has worked best. Most importantly, keeping my personal emotions out of the process is central, and very difficult with what amount to occasionally semi-psychotic individuals. Still, the issues I faced my first year, which were horrid, I don't face as much anymore, but I'm still learning.

Apologies--went on way to long there. I think about this a lot, and it's a fascinating subject, if not the least of which because teachers are not really taught how to control their classrooms, just that they should control them and, oh, by the way, good luck!

I'd been wondering if the UK suffers what we do over here in the US. Sounds like it might be so.

[Robusto]

Excellent post, Soul. I'm out the door to do more.

I'd go along with everything you say. I'd also say - if you didn't on my very quick read - that a hell of a lot is centered on the organisation / structure / management / ethos of the school as well as the teacher's approach to what is going on.

Emotional resilience is tattooed on every part of my bare flesh.

I have a week off and intend to go wild in my own debauched yet acceptable way to recharge the batteries.

In my smoke shack, I've installed a punch bag to smack up. There.

[Boss Hog]

I wasn't proud of what happened, but it worked. She's still in therapy in high school, but is doing great, studying hard to be a doctor

You will all be proud and have the last laugh though when she qualifies as a doctor and the little shite is locked up somewhere or is some junkie larger drinking scum in burberry on benefits.

On a similar note, we were at a christening recently for a dubious offshoot of the family which resembled an episode of shameless to put it mildly. During the afternoon my eldest daughter, 7. (stupid name for a kid I know) was punched in the face giving her a split lip by a boy a couple of years older. Although I didnt witness it fully I saw the immediate aftermath and rushed straight over.
When they all the other girls told me what had happened and pointed at this little shit who had a smug look on his face I immediately saw red and went for the boy who was about 10ish and already has a bit of a reputation.
By this time my wife and others were there and had to physically restrain me. At that time I had no issue at all in flooring this kid with one punch even at his age and regardless of any "legal" outcome. Although there was more chance I would have had to take on his parents who given their gypsie like persona would have started too.
Normally 99.99% of the time I wouldnt say boo to a fairy. But as a father protecting his daughter it can often unbalance your mind.
I like to think and hope that by the terrified look on this boy's face as a raging bull went for him may have made him think twice about doing something like that to anyone else in future, although I doubt it.

[the mothman]

Lee - You have my sympathy mate, some years back my step daughter was picked on and injured by a little scroat living next to us, went to the police with photographic evidence, they had words and were good in dealing with the situation. Totally down to the parents and no discipline as is the case I see in most, the dad of the kid even came round and had a pop at me, twat, didnt want to hear what his kid had done to mine, would love to of reacted but then I would of had my security license taken away because of an breach in rules and then been out of a job never to return to security... no justice there, but Ive had to deal with a lot harder bastards than that prick so I just looked to the skies. There is no respect,discipline or thought these days, news about incidents just get worse and worse. Frustrating world we live in for sure.

[Lee Nub]

Thats why i hated doing it, im a big guy and looked like a right bastard smacking him infront of teachers, parents and kids.

[patrickspark]

I dont think kids should be given the cain. I'd start them off on something a little milder first. May be a HdM or an El ray de Mundo perhaps

Brilliant !!!

[Soulmanure]

Excellent post, Soul. I'm out the door to do more.

I'd go along with everything you say. I'd also say - if you didn't on my very quick read - that a hell of a lot is centered on the organisation / structure / management / ethos of the school as well as the teacher's approach to what is going on.

Emotional resilience is tattooed on every part of my bare flesh.

I have a week off and intend to go wild in my own debauched yet acceptable way to recharge the batteries.

In my smoke shack, I've installed a punch bag to smack up. There.

Excellent point--the school culture accounts for a major portion of what kids think they can get away with.

I myself will go home and kill things digitally.

[jdawg]

A little ass whoopin never hurt nobody! I can assure you chaps that none of you got beatings worse than I did as a kid from my father, and I turned out all right. He only beat me when I deserved it, but when he did, holy shit did he make up for lost time!!!

The lack of discipline is a serious problem for today's youth. If a parent disciplines their child, the parent is arrested, and we wonder why kids today have no respect for others or the law! There are no consequences for their actions!

Sorry, to hear about your daughter's troubles Lee! The only thing that stops bullies is force, so you did the right thing mate!

[stephan]

I had corporal punishment at school (perfectly legal in the early 70s) and it didn't seem right or wrong just normal. As an advanced society (?) the protection of our children is paramount and the tiny proportion of sadistic pedagogues who may have used physical punishments inappropriately have now influenced legislation.

The point that others have made is that discipline needs to come from the parents and luckily in this country we (as parents) are still allowed to smack children. In most other European countries it's against the law.

[moidoid]

Parents these days just don't seem to want to control their kids.

What, all of them? Come on, that is such a generalisation.

I've got young kids and my kids are very well behaved. At school most of the other kids are well behaved too. A few aren't and would probably behave the way you describe, but only a few. Unfortunately these are the ones that people notice & all kids get tarred with the same brush.

I don't think whacking kids does any good, it just makes them think that whacking people is alright. I think that any repeat offenders in schools should get stuck in a national service type place away from the kids who want to work and are better behaved. Get a few Sergeant Majors in to scare the crap out of them & get them doing something useful.

And well done Lee.

[Soulmanure]

What, all of them? Come on, that is such a generalisation.

I've got young kids and my kids are very well behaved. At school most of the other kids are well behaved too. A few aren't and would probably behave the way you describe, but only a few. Unfortunately these are the ones that people notice & all kids get tarred with the same brush.

I don't think whacking kids does any good, it just makes them think that whacking people is alright. I think that any repeat offenders in schools should get stuck in a national service type place away from the kids who want to work and are better behaved. Get a few Sergeant Majors in to scare the crap out of them & get them doing something useful.

And well done Lee.

I'm with you on this--the majority of my students are relatively well mannered. On the other hand, there is an interesting crowd mentality such that a few ill mannered students can send even some of the calmer sorts along for the descent into chaos. This is why you have to watch them with an eagle eye.

There is another interesting phenomenon here, one that Hannah Arendt called the Banality of Evil, such that those who are disruptive tend to be more forceful than those who disagree with it--so it is rarer for a student who doesn't want the class to be that way to protest. They usually sit in quiet disapproval rather than active revolt.

The way I understand it, it is precisely those disruptive types who are more likely to have grown up in a violent or otherwise abusive home, so a violent response, it seems to me, would often only confirm their view of the world, not alter it.

[Ramon]

What, all of them? Come on, that is such a generalisation.

No, not all of them. Obviously there are good parents and kids out there, it's just the bad ones stand out. It also depends on what area you live in. Some are better than others.

[satch]

I spent my formative years in Africa. I was sent to a boarding school founded on christian principles (warning bells). The headmaster and housemaster insisted on being called by their military rank (more bells). The housemaster used watch us, as juniors, in the showers. He rubbed his obvious hard-on on the corner of the shower cubicle.
I was beaten at least every sunday morning with a long cane that he kept in a long wooden box. He made us open the box, hand him the cane and then we had to bend over his "special" chair and grip the front legs. On at least half a dozen occasions he made me bleed.
The prefects were given carte blanche to do with us as they liked.
I could go on but I probably won't sleep tonight as it is.
I still have thoughts where I would like to look deep in these people's eyes as I slit their throats one by one.
Yeah, beatings have caused me fucking problems. And my brothers.

[Soulmanure]

Satch,
that sounds like a nightmare of an upbringing. I feel fortunate to not have gone through that, and I wish I understood why people thought it was somehow good for young people, or anyone for that matter.