Europe - In or out?

[ValeTudoGuy]

Emaresee, I have to give it to you.... IMO thats one of the best and most balanced runndowns of Brexit I have read yet, anywhere.

[pootana]

We all break it down to personal gain or loss... I lost faith in government when they robbed public sector pensions on a cash grab....

Then didn't reform mp pensions and on top gave themselves a pay rise of 11% ...

I no longer want to he part of UK...sorry England you can poke it

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[Emaresee]

Emaresee, I have to give it to you.... IMO thats one of the best and most balanced runndowns of Brexit I have read yet, anywhere.

Cheers ...i've spent a few day in Dads Army mode; "we're doomed"..... And candidly i still think we are, but i am working through it.

That was the positive hopeful side of me. I cant always keep a lid on it though... The following may irk some folk... Some views on brexit at large, not i must stress, comments on the content this thread;

I think ignorance has been the victor here. The rights and wrongs of a referendum are questionable, but it was a key plank in the deck of what Cameron was elected upon and i admire him for delivering upon it. I think 'events dear boy...' have proven it was a daft idea. Even after all those years boggling at catholic v protistant in northern ireland, its proven that we can all get worryingly binary about things and forget that nation/faith/age aside we are of the same species, even when neither side is wholly 'right' or 'wrong'.

I feel for the old dear who i spoke to at the airport who met the brexit news with yipees only to look confused when i said it was a bad outcome.... Her response haunts me "is it? i didnt know..." . And it does haunt me. She thought she voted for the right outcome but had no ready or real idea why..... That there my BOTL buddies has hit my brain every damned waking hour since. Sadly if we want democracy we must put up with the fact that not everyone values it the same and takes it as seriously as one another.

parts of the process have been repellant. Anyone who tells me a 65 year old knew rationing and they paid the price in the war is being an ass. I asked a few. They all agreed, they were too young to know. I was born in the first half of the seventies... I had no concept of the impact of miners strikes, general strike, even growing up in a household & wider family that all worked for 'the austin' / british leyland.

Folk in their 70's & 80's defended the rights to a free europe, including a free britain, alongside members of other nations against a common enemy; fascism. Lets not confuse that with anything else. It was a beautifully selfless and bold set of endeavours. Comparing it to brexit isnt invoking national pride, it is sullying the memory of those who fought for freedom of choice. That was granted, despite the unclear wisdom of doing so! we now have to cope with the consequences of choice. Choices at home, and within Europe and the wider world. We aint going to like many of them as others press home advantage to our disadvantage where previously they couldnt as we were 'in the same club'. I only hope we have leadership prepared to do the same, and that the upside is worth it.

i find the jingoistic war references that have been a part of some of the leave supporters social media arsenal, to be gut wrenchingly apalling. We didnt throw europe under the wheels, we bound together. Sadly this time we've brought hardship on ourselves. We dropped the bomb on our already fragile economy..... BUT we did so democratically rather than at the hands of an aggressor. How long before the media and the masses finds something irrationally rational to blame for our impending recession? Hopefully someone will be bold enuf to call bed made, now we must lie in it...

Arguably we need blitz spirit now! Although misusing 'blitz spirit' in this context is to insult what went before... It was about a nation of neighbours clubbing together in war at home and at the fronts.... Doesnt feel so clubby at the moment, at home or abroad.

The irony is that we require someone who will not be so democratic, who will singularly be more selfish than most of us have the capaciy for if we are to rebuild the 'Jerusalem' that must be what is in the minds eye of the largest portion of the votes who supported the exit. I dont see that person in the cabinet, shadow cabinet or the rest.... Strangely i think we could do a lot worse than william hague. He got foreign affairs through n through.... And it was always fun hearing him say Benghazi.... I'll take any upside right now...

Beleive me this is not a call for our own version of the vile Black Shirts or similar- but rather someone who can singularly plot a path for UK economic success, at the cost of europe. Lets be honest thats what 'leave' has voted for. We can do better without you, and better than you.

i'm not so sure this tiny island, without an empire or commonwealth of old to call upon / exploit for materials and labour has much of a win to offer people. Sure James Dyson can now flog some high priced fans/ hand dryers & hoovers etc to whom ever at whatever cost but his remains a modest business in the whole scheme of things and one that isnt going to rain down largess upon us all. He long since shifted production off-shore.

We have to find out what it is that we have thats unique PDQ and sell sell sell, or pull up the draw bridges nationalise a few things and invest heavily in foreign relations, otherwise we are going to be on the rough end of every trade deal going for sometime yet. ....

I was working pretty feckin hard before.... Because we were emerging from recession and the upside was in reach. Now i am fearful (and losing actual sleep) that i will be working hard for the forseable future just to keep on an even keel (best outcome). To quote Morrissey to me feels 'like the soil's falling down on my head....' And wasnt he a happy sort in his day!!!!!

Best of luck to us all, i hope all extreme elements are found out and run out of town, and the rest of us in the sane world keep it decent and friendly.

To coin a phrase BOTL's ... Stay smoky! Having said that i suspect my 'planning for retirement, stick acquisition plan' has just been nudged back a decade.....

[ValeTudoGuy]

I would take William Hague in a heartbeat. I have always liked him post baseball cap wearing media monkey, he is to my mind a truly formidable politician.

[gangstarrrrr]

You cant be certain of all those things. But hey, if you want to be nelly negative then go ahead, I on the other hand intend to be positive and to try and contribute to the countries success in any way I can.

I hope as many people as possible take my outlook

Happy to take a 10 quid bet on each one!

I'd like to think we end up in a better place and indeed I'd love to be the first to admit I was wrong but sadly I don't see it at the moment.

[big bopper]

Just surfacing on this, been advising institutional clients as well as imbibing their internal briefing notes on fallout over the last few days.

Very briefly, once Article 50 is invoked, we're fucked. The only variable is the extent. We become the supplicant in that negotiation, the French and Germans are already eyeing a carve up of our financial sector.

Inflation, falling public spending, rising public sector debt, pulling of foreign investment. All in the post. Your mortgage will be cheaper but that will be offset by falls in value. As a reward for voting Leave, boomers will have their savings spit roasted by low interest rates and inflation.

We haven't even got the resources to negotiate a new deal with the EU, much less any trade deals with individual states worldwide. We can't even default to WTO terms as we're not an individual member.

Leavers are in la la land. Always were. All this 'roll your sleeves up' 'positive mental attitude' is mindless cheerleading.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Let's see

[Shaun]

I dont see the point in blaming a particular section of society, but maybe for you instead of blaming the 'boomers' blame the estimated 64% of 18-24year olds who didnt bother to vote.

Will the remain side now address the issues of why people wanted out in the first place, or will they run around spouting doom and gloom at everyone while doing nothing to help. So far its the latter.

[Emaresee]

I'd love for the majority leave to set out the plan..... Any plan... Accountability for the outcome, and the consequences of the outcome seem to have evaporated..... It feels like a win without conviction....

[ValeTudoGuy]

It appears trade negotiations have already started to materialise with Ausralia, New Zealand, Canda, Mexico, South Korea and India. Additional trade negotiatiors would seem to have been made available via New Zealand to help free up our's too.

China, Hong Kong, Brazil and USA have been targeted as expansion markets too.

Stuff is happening, you just have to wade past the negative hyperbole. We have the opportunity of deregulation and have increased our target audience exponentially...... Now is not the time to lament a shrinking EU and opt for half arsed backstep deals. We took the biggest step, let's not allow fear to hold us back.

[ValeTudoGuy]

French finance minister Michel Sapin has broken rank from the Tusk/Juncker school of fear mongering and has suggested that there are no Red lines in the EU - UK trade negotiations and suggested that better border control for Britain is possible [and I think we can all agree that this would appease certain sections of society]. There's rumblings of similar in Finland.

Tusk/Juncker will push for harsh treatment, we already know this. Well bollocks to Tusk/Juncker they are risking the economy of many countries in taking that line and the member states know this.

[Scooby]

I voted out and I think it will be the best decision we have ever made, in the long run. The main points why I voted out have already been covered in some way or another in this thread...immigration, sovereignty, eu laws...

Seeing the back of "dodgy Dave" is also a nice bonus



(The possibility of a more powerful Henry is what really swayed me )

[SHAMZ84]

Boris Johnson's is an absolute joke....how can you spearhead a campaign talking about all the things wrong with the EU and when it comes to the crunch. He didn't have the balls to take this nation forward once winning the vote...a complete utter shambles. After his speech thought he might go for it...but shows how cowardly the guys is...at least Groves putting him self up.

On another note good to see you posting again Scooby, hope your feeling much better mate.

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[PeeJay]

Bojo is a very clever politician and this will be a strategic move, I'd put money on it. Being PM now could be a poisoned chalice, better to pick up the reins later.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Boris Johnson's is an absolute joke....how can you spearhead a campaign talking about all the things wrong with the EU and when it comes to the crunch. He didn't have the balls to take this nation forward once winning the vote...a complete utter shambles. After his speech thought he might go for it...but shows how cowardly the guys is...at least Groves putting him self up.

On another note good to see you posting again Scooby, hope your feeling much better mate.

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Couldn't disagree more, he knows he is devisive of opinion and I think for once a politician has put their own aspirations behind those of the country.

Bravo Boris