Europe - In or out?

[ValeTudoGuy]

The government will not spend more on the NHS as they already said

Two prominent Tory's have said exactly the oposite of this today, Ian Duncan Smith has said he will be pushing for "the Lions Share" or the net savings to be spent on the NHS, followed by Farming and other major infrastructure.

And my local MP Nigel Evans has said he is looking forward to discussions on how best to invest the net return into the NHS, Farming and he made a little joke about he hopes there is some left over to fix potholes in the roads.

[ValeTudoGuy]

The planning should have occurred prior to the vote taking place, now is the time to implement those plans, unfortunately it now seems fairly obvious that there never was one as those that led the Leave campaign are hardly falling over themselves to be PM now that they realise that Cameron has absolutely no intention of being the one to invoke article 50.


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And how how do you suggest it should have been done when it's never been done before, there was little certainty the vote would go this way and the prime minister at the time was not in favour?

Perhaps, the Leave campaigners should have entered illegal discussions with the EU?

Dont forget, it was a prominent Remain campaigner that allowed this referendum to take place.

[Budgie Smuggler]

So you're suggesting that because it had never been done before that there shouldn't have been a plan in place?

I'm fairly sure that NASA had a plan when they made their first attempts to reach the moon, but then again, that's rocket science, this is just a small issue affecting millions of people's lives so you're right, it's perfectly reasonable to do it off the cuff.


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[Budgie Smuggler]

And how how do you suggest it should have been done when it's never been done before

I never suggested it should have been done full stop which is why I voted remain, anyone involved with the Leave campaign at top level should have had a clear plan, or realistically plans, covering all potential aspects and likely outcomes resulting from our exiting the EU.

They didn't do so as the fallout afterwards wasn't their real concern, that was solely getting out and worry about the fallout later.



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[sheppsea]

I don't think there is any resentment against people like you Nils unless you came here to milk our benefits system and be a drain on the NHS and education system. I think what little I know about you has proven the opposite so don't get swept up in the post Referendum hysteria. Its time now to settle down and plan for the future and this country certainly won't be expelling anyone except perhaps convicted criminals when they complete their sentence.

@Niela isn't the only one who feels this way, my wife (a Lithuanian) feels exactly them same, as does my mother (a German). In my mum's case, she has lived here for far longer than she lived ever lived in Germany, but is now for the first time considering taking British citizenship. The other day I heard that my wife may not have the same rights in terms of pensions etc should something happen to me once we leave the EU - I am sure this is all the hysteria of the moment but it is another concern about the whole thing, and shows how people who have come and contributed economy and to society are feeling, its a very sad time and I hope will pass once this all calms down

The point isn't whether anyone will be expelled or not, it is more the fear/worry that they are no longer welcome in the country, and although the vote wasn't solely on immigration, there is a portion that did vote based on concerns on immigration and possibly this is what swung it to leave.

I think the so called drain on NHS, Education system and benefits is also a bit of a myth. My experience of immigrants having worked with a number over the years is that they are incredibly hard working group of people who are always happy to just get on with the job. Although I know this wasn't at all your point and that you didn't mention it in your post, I also think the most overlooked point is that immigrants come here because there are enough jobs etc, if there wasn't they wouldn't come. It all reflective of this strange attitude people have towards immigration (and this isn't just in the UK, but also other countries, including those where people emigrate from) when from what I can see all the evidence suggests the contrary

I think Peanut Pete summed it up nicely

I and maybe it is the part of the UK I live in (London) have never spoken to anyone who could actually give me a real life exsample of some one not born here taking there job,there place in a hospital waiting list there kids school place etc etc

[ValeTudoGuy]

I never suggested it should have been done full stop which is why I voted remain, anyone involved with the Leave campaign at top level should have had a clear plan, or realistically plans, covering all potential aspects and likely outcomes resulting from our exiting the EU.

They didn't do so as the fallout afterwards wasn't their real concern, that was solely getting out and worry about the fallout later.



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And, early on day 3 you have solid proof?

And it was actually the british governments job to have a clear plan for all eventualities.... And that includes the shadow cabinet.

[Budgie Smuggler]

Nope, nor do you, but do you not think, considering all of the worry and uncertainty that they might want to let people know what their plans are?

Instead we've had various people telling us about what they can't deliver, contrary to their pre-referendum pledges, adding further to the uncertainty.


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[ValeTudoGuy]

@Niela isn't the only one who feels this way, my wife (a Lithuanian) feels exactly them same, as does my mother (a German). In my mum's case, she has lived here for far longer than she lived ever lived in Germany, but is now for the first time considering taking British citizenship. The other day I heard that my wife may not have the same rights in terms of pensions etc should something happen to me once we leave the EU - I am sure this is all the hysteria of the moment but it is another concern about the whole thing, and shows how people who have come and contributed economy and to society are feeling, its a very sad time and I hope will pass once this all calms down

The point isn't whether anyone will be expelled or not, it is more the fear/worry that they are no longer welcome in the country, and although the vote wasn't solely on immigration, there is a portion that did vote based on concerns on immigration and possibly this is what swung it to leave.

Their mother nations have as much [pehaps more] to do wih the result of the talks which will be held as the UK government will.

It's another reason why we are in a not so bad position to negotiate Brexit. Poland and other prominent countries with many emigrated residents will likely take a positive look in the hopes of gaining preferable circumstances for their people.

On a personal note, racism has not been the motive behind any out voter I personally know..... I'm not saying it isn't real and in existence though.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Nope, nor do you, but do you not think, considering all of the worry and uncertainty that they might want to let people know what their plans are?

Instead we've had various people telling us about what they can't deliver, contrary to their pre-referendum pledges, adding further to the uncertainty.


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Meda should be asking better questions and pushing Politicians [of both] persuasions for better answers. As a people we should too, in fact... Go and ask your MP and I will do the same.

[Budgie Smuggler]

Meda should be asking better questions and pushing Politicians [of both] persuasions for better answers. As a people we should too, in fact... Go and ask your MP and I will do the same.

I totally agree with both points, however the shift towards US-style sensationalist "reporting" means that the uncertainty better suits their agenda than direct questioning of the key players as they can spin it out for longer.


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[PeeJay]

Milking benefits and a drain on the NHS? I'd be willing to bet the proportion of the population that fit the above description is likely to be higher amongst Brits than from those that migrated here.

The planning should have occurred prior to the vote taking place, now is the time to implement those plans, unfortunately it now seems fairly obvious that there never was one as those that led the Leave campaign are hardly falling over themselves to be PM now that they realise that Cameron has absolutely no intention of being the one to invoke article 50.

I quite agree but does that mean we need more?

[Budgie Smuggler]

And potentially lose all of those that contribute positively, far outweighing the negative from the detractors?

Great plan.

Do you think that all of the Brits that claim benefits and blame migrants for "taking our jobs" will suddenly became skilled workers able to work in hospitals? Or maybe they'll suddenly think that rather than sit at home and claim benefits they want to bust their arses working 10-12 hour shifts for minimum wage in bars, restaurants and coffee shops, cleaning hotel rooms or offices?


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[ValeTudoGuy]

My sister has just qualified as a nurse..... She estimates she is around 1 in 5 British applicant to manage to do it.

She personally knows qualified British nurses who had career breaks and are desperate to get back in but cant.

Foreign recruitment has DECIMATED a British persons chance of being a nurse.

I have personally seen skilled British workers lose out on jobs to Bulgarian and Polish workers who are willing to work for less money, they do it by registering as self employed, breaking the working time directive and selling grey market goods they import from their own country. Again the Brits cant legaly compete.

And still this is not the reason I voted out..... And yes theres a lot of lazy British scum who never want to work. They would be the first people I would cut out of the loop if I could.

[TJCoro]

Champions of the World!

I have no dog in this fight and no position, but I find this thread very interesting and educational. I came to learn about cigars, now I'm learning about world affairs.

I'm posting because of something I just learned about the great land to the north of State of Mind. I just read that Donald Trump, the conservative nominee for President of the USA - some say the world - has gone on record fully supporting the BREXIT, saying that it confirms his position that countries like the UK and USA want to "take their countires back." From what I have no idea.

I wonder what you guys think of that.

Ricky Bobby

[ValeTudoGuy]

I think we have somewhat made an attempt to remove our country from an increasingly federal and globalised state where corporate lobying is a growing fear and where the rich states force harsh and unproven economic policies on their poorer neighbours.
My hope is that the EU fails and we can rebuild a European allience of truly sovereign nations with no attempt at a half arsed centralised currency and proper free trade.