Europe - In or out?

[SHAMZ84]

I agree ...but both camps have been as bad as each other... IMHO it was really difficult for me to find the real facts from what either camp were saying...had to read and look for fact my self...still 50 50 which way it will go....seems very similar to the Scottish referendum.

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[oskihen]

Sadly as with all votes and referendums either side isn't right a happy medium in the middle would be ideal . In Europe but with a government that is extremely pro Britain and got the balls to send up to Brussels or a nation who like the French stick together if the government does not perform as expected .

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[Wigan]

I agree neither choice is great but staying is the least worst option.

I'm also shocked it is being decided by a vote. The masses shouldn't decide something so monumental as this. We don't vote on going to war

[gangstarrrrr]

I agree neither choice is great but staying is the least worst option.

I'm also shocked it is being decided by a vote. The masses shouldn't decide something so monumental as this. We don't vote on going to war

Agreed. It is a huge task for people to comprehend and decide on, whichever camp you're in. A lot of people have decided based on one facet, immigration, when there are many more at stake.

[gangstarrrrr]

Found this interesting.

[sheppsea]

I'm also shocked it is being decided by a vote. The masses shouldn't decide something so monumental as this. We don't vote on going to war

Completely agree Wig, we're all being asked to vote on something we (including myself) don't fully understand. If anything we can make a more reasoned choice if ask to vote on whether to go to war

Agreed. It is a huge task for people to comprehend and decide on, whichever camp you're in. A lot of people have decided based on one facet, immigration, when there are many more at stake.

And they often get the wrong type of immigration

[ValeTudoGuy]

The point is that even the professional politicians and beurocrats dont fully undertand europe either.

[PeeJay]

Apparently England's footballers won't be allowed to vote in the referendum. They can't even find the box let alone put a cross in it!

[Simon Bolivar]

Apparently England's footballers won't be allowed to vote in the referendum. They can't even find the box let alone put a cross in it!

Your funniest & most accurate comment so far PJ!

[Simon Bolivar]

OK, as it's polling day today & some additional comments have been made already, forgive me for adding my thoughts below but for some reason I have not been allowed to vote; perhaps because I have been living in Belgium for 25yrs (which is officially longer than you are allowed to vote for general elections ect), even though I work & pay my taxes & national insurance in the UK. So using my 25yrs of experience of really living in the heart of the EU, here's my two pennyworth:
What I wanted all along was to be given the chance to pull out of the social chapter of the EU. We (or more likely our parents) voted to join a Economic European Community, the idea being you could trade without tarfifs being added to your goods as they pass through different countries. You would be able to drive a truck of goods from Aberdeen to Rome without any dues being added. You would also be allowed to live & work anywhere in the EU. An important point to remember is that there when we joined there were only 9 members (see quote below). None of these members were likely to cause a problem with mass movement to the UK, all being stable & economically sound countries.
So this is what I believe is still a good decision & has brought many benefits, most of which we perhaps don't fully appreciate or realise. However once the beast was formed, the numbers kept growing to included the PIGS ~ Portugal, Ireland, Greece & Spain. None of which had economies similar to us. Then the Euro came in & the main members wanted all EU members to adopt it but they had to meet strict economic targets before they joined. They never meet those targets but like the snowball rolling down the hill, the momentum was too fast to stop & they were admitted anyway because this was n't to do with economic but closer political union. Then the more members that were added, with diminishing economic status so Romania, Bulgaria joined bringing nothing but cheap labour. Where will the expansion end? Turkey wants to join but it really is unlikely in our life time but not impossible one day.
The other area where Germany & France have been determined to drive us all to, is the social chapter & that will ultimately lead to the EU having tax raising rights & attempting to form an EU army.
The costs of all the bodies that make all these things happen is enormous , made worse by moving the EU Parliment from Strasburg to Brussels & back.
So most of us enjoy the benefits of being members when travelling on Euro star or holidays, only changing our money once to go to Europe, rather than for each country we visit & our companies trade with them.

So as I see it the pro's of staying are continued staus quo (which the markets & most of business want), free movement of work & travel, being able to to trade with our neighbours & beneft from EU migration to UK.
Against: Hindering us forming trade agreements with other countries outside EU, ever growing costs, increasing social side which we have little effect in curbing (we have voted against EU motions 70 odd times & have lost every time). Not being able to have any control on EU migration, which of course is far larger than expected by our parents when there were only 9 members. The countries we used to trade with, mostly from Commonwealth have had to find other partners &might not be do quick to want to start buying from us again.
In fact trying to get trade agreements (as distinct from just selling) is a very difficult & lengthy process taking years.

My conclusions: With the benefit of 100% hindsight, if our parents had seen where were are to day, in the scale of how big the EU beast has become & how little control we have & how little our voice counts, I think the majority would probably have voted against joining. However we have to live with the present situation & although the world won't fall apart either way & we will survive; will we continue to thrive? I think we are too far in now to pull out. I think we are stuck & pulling out does carrying great risks to the long term economy, lots of unstability in the nearer term & a legal morass as we try to repeal the laws we don't like & others arguing to keep the ones they do.
So if I had the vote today, I would remain. We were never given the vote on what most would have voted out for & I think that was Cameron's gamble that the stark choice of in or out & the nation's usual political apthay would mean remain would win. but with us older fogies being more likely to vote & the media & politicians whipping things up it really could go either way. One thing for sure the fall out will last at least as long a the Scottish independence vote did & I think even longer if we pull out & no other trade agreements are forthcoming. So if you have the vote then take your courage in your hands & make your mark & then what ever happens you know you did all you could to continue or change the very social fabric our our nation.







"The 6 founding Member States of the EU's predecessor, the European Communities, established by the 1957 Treaties of Rome, were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany). In 1973 Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom joined, enlarging the Communities to 9 Member States." http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...U_enlargements

[mcdee]

Great food for thought there Simon. I'm still unsure which way to vote but will do so by 10pm tonight, one way or the other.

[oskihen]

I think the whole campaign from the government's point of view was all wrong.
They decided to have a referendum and let the people of Britain decide the outcome .
As our elected government they should of been unbiased and outlined their strategic plans for each outcome , we then as a nation could choose which plan and road to go down .
The typical slagging off of each side and petty bickering doesn't inform the people and also is extremely detrimental to our already disheartened view of our politician and political parties .

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[cj121]

Very good points Oski. Weak leadership, poor information and total absence of a projected vision either way. Crap.

[sheppsea]

Europe - In or out?

Very eloquently put Simon

And Jim, I completely agree about the awful campaign on both sides, I don't feel at any point have I been given the fact and only been given scaremongering and opinion, but I disagree regarding the government, I think they should have a view on what is best for the country as that's what they're there for; their approach has just been all wrong

[Ryan]

However once the beast was formed, the numbers kept growing to included the PIGS ~ Portugal, Ireland, Greece & Spain. None of which had economies similar to us.

Ireland joined at the same time as the UK.