Europe - in or out?

[zencohiba]

Out ..... but I'd say In if Cameron can get the EU to back off and keep their nose out of our internal affairs.

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[Johnny Thunder]

Unless changes are made, out.

[gangstarrrrr]

In.

Trade with the EU is a massive boon for our economy and we would suffer if we were to lose that.

Clearly some things need to be reformed, but the immigration problem isn't as bad as the papers make out. On top of that, most immigrants are of working age and do the jobs that locals don't want to do. It has also been shown that they are a net contributor to our economy, not a drain.

[PeeJay]

So if we're out we can't trade with the EU or accept migrants? No, we'll just have better control of both.

[gangstarrrrr]

So if we're out we can't trade with the EU or accept migrants? No, we'll just have better control of both.

That's making the assumption that access to the EU market will be available as we want it, that's not necessarily the case. Access and tariffs could be altered against us, restricting potential trade benefits.

The point here is that I don't believe the current problems with the EU are as bad as the papers make out and we have a better chance at crafting policy from within the EU as opposed to out of it.

[Maks]

Bmw won't stop selling cars here and Deutsche bank won't pull their offices out of the U.K. The common factor is that the uk is the most successful country in terms of growth and the financial capital of Europe. We will be ok. The consequences of not pulling out are too great a risk to take.

Cameron already tried a renegotiation before Christmas and didn't change anything, Europe will not renegotiate on our terms. It's like trying to negotiate with the local council on your council tax. You've got no chance.


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.? ? Charles Dickens

[ValeTudoGuy]

We buy more from them than we sell to them, so as an entity Europe would be silly to not trade with the UK given that we are likely one of the zones top export markets.

Theres also the issue of having our say on a world level eroded. IMF and NATO seats etc.... If we stay in much longer we will likely lose our seats and only have part of an overall European seat where our input will probably be vetoed.

[Niela]

Of course an exit would not mean the end of the UK in an economic sense. And of course Britain would still trade with the EU, just like Switzerland and Norway. However, this trade will still be under EU rules, with the exception that the UK now has no more say on what these rules are. The same as Switzerland and Norway have to accept these rules without having any power over these rules.

Politically Britain would be weakened on a world stage. The EU has a lot of sway in the world when it speaks with one voice. If we fragment ourselves we only weaken ourselves. I think the hostilities towards the EU in Britain stems mostly from the fact that we are living on an island. I still remember the first time I was able to drive to France without having to stop at the boarder or show a passport. Later, when the Euro currency came, I lived on the Dutch and Belgium border where I studied. I was simply taking a bus over the boarder and payed with the same money as I did in Germany. It is something that brought me closer together to the other European countries and created a sense of connection and belonging.

When I lived in OZ and NZ, I really loved it down there, but I missed the cultural diversity of Europe, without boarders fragmenting and hindering an exchange. I realized that what we have here in Europe is something special and it would sadden me to see our union fall apart and instead of working together, everybody just working for themselves and against each other.

[ValeTudoGuy]

I think its a myth we would be politically weaker. We (UK) currently have around 8% voting say in EU matters and the Lisbon treaty effectively removes our Veto on some matters entirely. If/when other members join the union our say would be further eroded.

Bear in mind over 70% of our GDP is generated right here at home and only around 15% from the eurozone. Yet all of that generation (not just the 15% europe part) is subject to EU regulation that we have such a little say in.

Why should the worlds 5th largest economy allow 100% of our economic dealings to be dictated by red tape from an external entity that contributes so little? And have to pay such an entity a real world cost of over ?50 million per day for the liberty.

Theres also the fact that membership has effectively destroyed our Farming, Fisheries and Manufacturing industries.

The Common fisheries policy alone wiped out over 100,000 British jobs and cost us millions upon millions.

Politically on our own the UK is a G20, G8, UN Security Council member and has seats on the boards of IMF and WTO. The EU openly wants to remove British seats from the IMF and UN, to be replaced by guess what...... A european seat.... Which as already pointed out we will have only 8% or less say in.

The EU also openly try to degrade the UK's bonds with external historic trading partners, namely the commonwealth. Commonwealth residents are being forced to apply for visas yet we have to accept EU residents as a given. Down right discrimination?

And to reiterate, all of these negatives come at the cost of Billions of ?'s every year that could be invested directly into UK infrastructure.

I really cant see why we would stay. Its like throwing a party, paying for a large chunk of the food yet being told we cant choose what is being bought and will have to eat what we are given.

[Simon-JG-hr]

That's making the assumption that access to the EU market will be available as we want it, that's not necessarily the case. Access and tariffs could be altered against us, restricting potential trade benefits.

Indeed. This also means we would be in a position to set our own tariffs, allowing us to set up far more beneficial customs arrangements with emerging economies. The idea that leaving the EU would mean that EU countries would no longer trade with us is ludicrous, the EU does a HUGE amount of trade with non-EU and non-EFTA countries (I appreciate that's not what you said, but a lot of people are intimating as much).

Our voice on the world stage would, arguably, be far greater. We would represent ourselves at a number of major international economic and fiscal organisations (complete with our own vote), as opposed to being represented by the EU which often has very different economic and fiscal priorities to the UK.

All of that said, I still don't know. As things stand, I would find it very difficult to make a definitive choice, but would probably err towards out. But that may change depending upon how things go in the intervening months.

[Maks]

For those using the open border argument just look what Sweden have done today, or what is happening in Germany right now. Lots of this isn't reported widely in the news due to censorship. I love being able to drive through Europe freely but would give it all up to protect freedom from the European state.


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.? ? Charles Dickens

[ValeTudoGuy]

For those using the open border argument just look what Sweden have done today, or what is happening in Germany right now. Lots of this isn't reported widely in the news due to censorship. I love being able to drive through Europe freely but would give it all up to protect freedom from the European state.


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.” – Charles Dickens

Holy crap i hadnt heard about the Germany incident.

I assume your talking of the alleged rape of 100 German women by 1000 north African men in Cologne?

Sad times

[Maks]

I love this analogy,

I really cant see why we would stay. Its like throwing a party, paying for a large chunk of the food yet being told we cant choose what is being bought and will have to eat what we are given.[/QUOTE]

And yes sad times.


"Ah, if only I had brought a cigar with me! This would have established my identity.? ? Charles Dickens

[Niela]

Holy crap i hadnt heard about the Germany incident.

I assume your talking of the alleged rape of 100 German women by 1000 north African men in Cologne?

Sad times

There were 60 reports with the police, one woman got raped, the rest got felt up and robbed. Who the people were is not clear. Yes, there were over 1000 people around the train station at the time, but it was a group of 40 or 50 people that circled their victims to rob them. Early reports indicate that the men were African and middle eastern decent, but seeing how these rumors travel and how 1 rape turns into 100 rapes so easily, I wouldn't trust any reports until we have official results from the police.

[PeeJay]

Indeed Nils but equally it could have been the start of a third column sowing the seeds of fear in the population