Europe - in or out?

[sheppsea]

The Swiss government and the Norwegian government diplomatic mission to the EU.

I suppose we could queery figures untill the cows come home and it would still come down to if we truly want to believe it or not.

All figure gathering boddies are run by Humans who are capable of bias and unbalenced thought.

The question still stands of where did the Swiss and Norwegians get those figures from, what did they take into account to arrive at those costs?

As you say there's not much point in debating this and ultimately we'll believe what we want to believe, my point was just that we should take the headline figures with a pinch of salt, and that I find it frustrating that these numbers are thrown about without any real explanation


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[tippexx]

A quick search suggests we are a fairly major player in the supply of: Nuclear Reactors, Mineral Fuel Distilates, Cars, Pharmaceuticals, Elecrical Machenery, Optics, Organic Chemicals, Space/Aircraft parts and plastics.

Perhaps our manufacturing sector is in better order than i gave it credit for.

But if anything thats another argument for out in my eyes. Europe is not the growing market. In fact its shrinking from what i can tell. Surely we should look to garner preferential deals with emerging and growing markets.

We are the 11th largest exporter and 6th largest importer in the world and thats a pretty good position to bargain from in my opinion.

LOL. If we were really that good at supplying nuclear reactors why do we need China to build our nuclear power stations.

Your final figures need a little bit more work Marc.

11th largest exporter might mean we export ten quids worth. 6th largest importer might mean we import a Pony's worth. See the problem?

[tippexx]

where did the Swiss and Norwegians get those figures from,

I don't think the Swiss or Norwegians got them from anywhere because neither is attempting to build a case for joining or leaving the EU.

The figures are more likely to have been bolted together on someone else's interpretation of the economics of those countries.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Screenshot_2016-01-07-12-25-46.jpg
Not chump change

[ValeTudoGuy]

Screenshot_2016-01-07-12-31-43.jpg
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From the EU's own statistics

The book "Switzerland-European Union an impossible memberships?" be Rene Schwok goes into more details about the projected cost of actual membership.

[peanutpete]

Another issue that is hard to quantify is how will all the foreign companies react if we pull out of the EU, will terms be preferential for them in a country in the EU

[Niela]

The Swiss government concluded that their trade with the EU currently costs around 600million franks per year. If they had been a member state that figure would have been over 3.4billion franks per year.

Norway actually does a lot more trade with the EU than the UK from what i understand. Their EEA agreement costs them around ?330million a year.

The UK's membership cost.... Just membership cost in pounds not euros is ?18.4billion per year. Then theres the roughly ?50billion per year trade deficit we "enjoy" with our friends in the Euro Zone

Well, but Switzerland also has to let EU members work in their country, their currency had to be devalued because of the euro and they receive no subsidies or returns by the EU at all. If you look at the costs, you also have to look at what you get back. Otherwise you are comparing apples with pears.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Well, but Switzerland also has to let EU members work in their country, their currency had to be devalued because of the euro and they receive no subsidies or returns by the EU at all. If you look at the costs, you also have to look at what you get back. Otherwise you are comparing apples with pears.

There are some bilateral agreements, yes. But how long will this last given Switzerland voting in favour of caps on EU migration?

They are also perhaps the best case study given their 14 rejected referendum votes on EU entry. They have probably had more debate on the positives and negatives of european membership than any other country and are possibly one of the least likely to join.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Another issue that is hard to quantify is how will all the foreign companies react if we pull out of the EU, will terms be preferential for them in a country in the EU

The Lisbon treaty guarantees us trade agreement on exit and we would still adhere to WTO regulations. And with a proven inbound trading budget of ?628billion per annum I would suggest that major players would make it their business to come to preferential terms.

Of the top 10 investors into British economic infrastructure
Only 4 are EU countrues.

Screenshot_2016-01-07-16-27-01.jpg

Chart taken from gov.uk

[Niela]

They are also perhaps the best case study given their 14 rejected referendum votes on EU entry.

Well they also only allowed women to vote in the 60s or 70s...

I think the UK and EU need each other. We need Britain with it's ideas and different points of view in the EU. However, demanding a special deal all the time only weakened the British influence on the rest of the EU. And if Britain didn't threaten leaving to demand discoutns and special treatment every other decade, it's sway would be larger and we would look at a different EU today. (probably)

[ValeTudoGuy]

Well they also only allowed women to vote in the 60s or 70s...

I think the UK and EU need each other. We need Britain with it's ideas and different points of view in the EU. However, demanding a special deal all the time only weakened the British influence on the rest of the EU. And if Britain didn't threaten leaving to demand discoutns and special treatment every other decade, it's sway would be larger and we would look at a different EU today. (probably)

Perhaps a sign that we are too far removed to be fully commited?
I dont disagree with the sentiment that Britain and the EU benefit from each other. But i dont feel that mutual benefit and strong economic and diplomatic bonds is exclusive to member states.

We can still work together with greater autonomy and localised decision making.

[peanutpete]

The Lisbon treaty guarantees us trade agreement on exit and we would still adhere to WTO regulations. And with a proven inbound trading budget of ?628billion per annum I would suggest that major players would make it their business to come to preferential terms.

Of the top 10 investors into British economic infrastructure
Only 4 are EU countrues.

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Chart taken from gov.uk

Sorry I do not think my wording was right I meant companies who had set up over here, would they move there manufacturing to a country that were still in the EU

[Starkey]

Yet another distraction to occupy the minds of the masses while the fat cats do what they want behind closed doors

[Tendarus]

Out. For 2 reasons.

Mainly the trade argument. Others have correctly pointed out that if we leave we?ll still be able to trade with the EU, and even if we agreed the total would reduce a bit (though that?s debatable), the additional, new bilateral trade agreements that we could set-up with the US, China etc. would more than make up for any EU trade reduction.

Secondly, free movement makes it impossible for any government to make long-term, strategic infrastructure decisions. It?s nothing to do with race or xenophobia, it?s a sheer matter of numbers. I think it was over 200k net last year and it?s simply not possible to suddenly have enough houses, roads, trains, etc. to accommodate all those new people without it massively impacting on prices, congestion, etc.

[nplymouth]

Blimey this is hot topic... I'm OUT


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