Europe - in or out?

[tippexx]

When you're in the tent there's nowhere to run!

.... and outside the tent there's only piss and it's takers to dodge!

[ValeTudoGuy]

What if your stuck in a tent with 27 other inhabitants, including people you havent got on with from child hood, a few leaches and a couple arguing couples........ Oh and the inhabitants of the tent pegged next to yours insist on playing loud music into the night and constantly walk into your tent without asking...... Oh and then one of them tries to force himself on your Mrs.

[sheppsea]

I do wonder on one point... the cost of being in Europe is variously and inconsistently bandied about. What I don't see is the cost savings of not being 'in'.... The two are unlikely to match.

I am rather old fashioned in my approach... cost benefit led... so while multi-billion costs of Europe going to Brussels make for dramatic headlines, the inbound return funds from of EU grants, allowances etc is not immediately obvious. What do we gain and lose in exiting. Give me those stats and my vote follows sense... where are we better off - that's where I will want to be. As a project Europe was never meant to be preserved in aspic. If it were, there would not be mechanisms for countries to exit, or join. So member states being in and out ought to be an accepted part of evolution.

as it goes I think we ought to wholly commit to a renegotiation of terms... and find a more advantageous compromise. BUT it doesn't seem likely. So I suspect we will come out.

However, I cant quite get past the old adage of "better to be in the tent p*ssing out, rather than outside of the tent p*ssing in" .... leaves me feeling rather nervy.

I think this sums up my attitude, in all political issues I never feel I am given the facts to make a judgement, and instead get a series of headlines with no substance (on both sides), particularly when it comes to the EU. Even the figures about how much we pay into the EU I find is shrouded in mystery, when someone says its costs the UK ?10billion a day, what makes up that ?10 billion? Is it a cheque we send to Brussels, or does it include money that goes to EU countries through investment or buying goods/services to import, how much of that will we be paying anyway whether in or out of the EU?

As a point of principle I am pro EU and like the idea of a union with our closest neighbours, and I think that it's na?ve to think that leaving will suddenly mean we will have full control of immigration and that no criminals/rapists/terrorists will enter the country (or that if we do somehow completely control immigration that would stop any of those things anyway, but that's another debate), I also don't believe we'll all suddenly be richer as the arguments against membership seem to imply, but as with most things, even if we do leave I can't help but think life will go on, UKIP will find something else to dislike and I'll still enjoy my cigars (but will limit myself to taking only 50 back from Germany when I next go)


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[peanutpete]

Not wanting to sound insensitive but 1 100 or 1000 African men raping women has nothing to do with being in or out of Europe. It is typical red herring that the right wing press will bring up and blame on the EU

[Simon Bolivar]

Speaking as a Brit that has been in exile for over 25yrs, in the very heart of the EU, I think I have as much experience as anyone if not more than most here on what the practical pros & cons are of living in Europe under the present atatus quo.
Being older than PJ but younger than Tipoex (isn't everyone? ;0) ), I can remember the original referendum vote but too you to have voted. My parents voted to join the EEC; the European Econonic Community. This guarrenteed us the righr to live & work anywhere intge then 12 European countries & that we wold have free trade with no tarrifs or duties on goods exported to Europe. Driving a lorry from Scotland to Italy, without physical boarder controls came much later.
What they didn't for was the social contract & unelected leaders making rulings ovee us & our high courts.
So many two pennyworth is stay in only if we can become a second tier member state without ecomonic varriers but without the social side. This was actuakly proposed by a leading politician last year but isn't anywhere near what Cammeron is asking for. Whaft he's asking for is too meaningless to xgange the minds of the majority, even if he won those changes, which is as likely as the mass inmigration into Germany & Austria still being a popular decision in 2-3yrs time.

[Emaresee]

What if your stuck in a tent with 27 other inhabitants, including people you havent got on with from child hood, a few leaches and a couple arguing couples........ Oh and the inhabitants of the tent pegged next to yours insist on playing loud music into the night and constantly walk into your tent without asking...... Oh and then one of them tries to force himself on your Mrs.

its all relative i guess... Push a few out of the tent, sort a few out, accept others will continue to be utter *rses. Build up a good flow and pee on your neighbours stereo from long range, and invite a bouncer to reside in your tent!

lets be frank life here is pretty good.... Hence we want to protect it, and why others want to be here. That wont change by being in the EU or not.

[james.uk]

I'm undecided but favour staying in as I like the idea of a border less world ( or at least European state). Having said that with the current situation in the Middle East we should re impose borders within the EU to ensure we keep out those that wish us harm.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Not wanting to sound insensitive but 1 100 or 1000 African men raping women has nothing to do with being in or out of Europe. It is typical red herring that the right wing press will bring up and blame on the EU

Seems more like a scrambled attempt to stop the left wing powers from hiding it, from everything i can see. Especially that the German powers were so afraid of appearing racist they initially suggested the night had been a resounding success without issue.

BBC news night just cut the Cologne interview section off so they could show a random 10 minute video about how great middle eastern people are.

[ValeTudoGuy]

I think this sums up my attitude, in all political issues I never feel I am given the facts to make a judgement, and instead get a series of headlines with no substance (on both sides), particularly when it comes to the EU. Even the figures about how much we pay into the EU I find is shrouded in mystery, when someone says its costs the UK ?10billion a day, what makes up that ?10 billion? Is it a cheque we send to Brussels, or does it include money that goes to EU countries through investment or buying goods/services to import, how much of that will we be paying anyway whether in or out of the EU?

As a point of principle I am pro EU and like the idea of a union with our closest neighbours, and I think that it's na?ve to think that leaving will suddenly mean we will have full control of immigration and that no criminals/rapists/terrorists will enter the country (or that if we do somehow completely control immigration that would stop any of those things anyway, but that's another debate), I also don't believe we'll all suddenly be richer as the arguments against membership seem to imply, but as with most things, even if we do leave I can't help but think life will go on, UKIP will find something else to dislike and I'll still enjoy my cigars (but will limit myself to taking only 50 back from Germany when I next go)


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The Swiss government concluded that their trade with the EU currently costs around 600million franks per year. If they had been a member state that figure would have been over 3.4billion franks per year.

Norway actually does a lot more trade with the EU than the UK from what i understand. Their EEA agreement costs them around €330million a year.

The UK's membership cost.... Just membership cost in pounds not euros is ?18.4billion per year. Then theres the roughly ?50billion per year trade deficit we "enjoy" with our friends in the Euro Zone

[sheppsea]

The Swiss government concluded that their trade with the EU currently costs around 600million franks per year. If they had been a member state that figure would have been over 3.4billion franks per year.

Norway actually does a lot more trade with the EU than the UK from what i understand. Their EEA agreement costs them around ?330million a year.

The UK's membership cost.... Just membership cost in pounds not euros is ?18.4billion per year. Then theres the roughly ?50billion per year trade deficit we "enjoy" with our friends in the Euro Zone

Where do those numbers come from though Marc? The point is the anti-EU media/parties will come up with one set of numbers to demonstrate that membership is terrible, and those who are pro-EU will come up with another set of numbers that show, just as convincingly, that it's great to be a member. That is why I am incredibly sceptical about any statistics, especially when it's not shown how someone came to those numbers and what factors were taken into account


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[smokey joe]

In, with reforms.


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[ValeTudoGuy]

Where do those numbers come from though Marc?
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The Swiss government and the Norwegian government diplomatic mission to the EU.

I suppose we could queery figures untill the cows come home and it would still come down to if we truly want to believe it or not.

All figure gathering boddies are run by Humans who are capable of bias and unbalenced thought.

[peanutpete]

Seems more like a scrambled attempt to stop the left wing powers from hiding it, from everything i can see. Especially that the German powers were so afraid of appearing racist they initially suggested the night had been a resounding success without issue.

BBC news night just cut the Cologne interview section off so they could show a random 10 minute video about how great middle eastern people are.

Marc please do not misunderstand me it was a terrible thing that happened and it should be discussed and action taken my point is that it has fuck all to do with being in or out of the EU

i think the way the EU treated Greece when we are all meant to be helping each other is more of an issue to being in or out of Europe and before any one states that Greece got them self in to that mess that is no doubt true but do some research on how the EU fiddled the books to allow them to gain entry and how much interest they are being charge and it is clear that some one is making a shit load of money off there misery

[tippexx]

We buy more from the EU than we sell. Hardly surprising, collectively the other EU countries are far bigger and able to supply things we want and can (currently) afford. To the EU we supply those things they want and can afford.

It's very easy to want something you cannot afford. That is the realistic situation for great swathes of the World. The notion that UK companies can just run out and sell masses of product to the World is a nonsense, if they could, they'd be doing it now.

The EU doesn't really need the UK manufactured that much, there is very little other than 'name' prestige items that they can't and already do make for themselves.

[ValeTudoGuy]

A quick search suggests we are a fairly major player in the supply of: Nuclear Reactors, Mineral Fuel Distilates, Cars, Pharmaceuticals, Elecrical Machenery, Optics, Organic Chemicals, Space/Aircraft parts and plastics.

Perhaps our manufacturing sector is in better order than i gave it credit for.

But if anything thats another argument for out in my eyes. Europe is not the growing market. In fact its shrinking from what i can tell. Surely we should look to garner preferential deals with emerging and growing markets.

We are the 11th largest exporter and 6th largest importer in the world and thats a pretty good position to bargain from in my opinion.