rant time about the waste of space NHS

[cigarmo]

@Tommy

It seems to be a popular thing to blame everything on immigrants. It was not my experience yesterday, the problem seemed to be
1 Drunk people minor or no injures escorted by police
2 scum bag drug addicts escorted by police
3 Chavs that had been fighting escorted by police
4 Chavs that had stolen a car and crashed it(note the chavs got treatment before the innocent couple they crashed into)

from the way all the above spoke dressed smelt and behaved, it would be a fair assumption to say that they make no contribution to society financial or other.

All of them were what you would call native british.

on the other hand

every single health care professional above the rank of a nurse was a immigrant.
the doctor was
the consultant was
the surgeon was
the anaesthesiologist was

Now I am not daft of course I know that not every native british person is a chav and not every immigrant is a professional.

Unfortunately the tabloid press, ukip, edl and such would have people believe That every immigrant was.

[EdBlackadder]

@Tommy

It seems to be a popular thing to blame everything on immigrants. It was not my experience yesterday, the problem seemed to be
1 Drunk people minor or no injures escorted by police
2 scum bag drug addicts escorted by police
3 Chavs that had been fighting escorted by police
4 Chavs that had stolen a car and crashed it(note the chavs got treatment before the innocent couple they crashed into)

from the way all the above spoke dressed smelt and behaved, it would be a fair assumption to say that they make to contribution to society financial or other.

All of them were what you would call native british.

on the other hand

every single health care professional above the rank of a nurse was a immigrant.
the doctor was
the consultant was
the surgeon was
the anaesthesiologist was

Now I am not daft of course I know that not every native british person is a chav and not every immigrant is a professional.

Unfortunately the tabloid press, ukip, edl and such would have people believe That every immigrant was.

You aren't wrong. We're still net importers of medical/nursing staff. We don't train enough nurses for a start. Medically we do train enough doctors but
1) about 20-25% of medical students are international students (universities love this as their fees are far higher) and often leave the UK after gaining their GMC registration
2) there is a brain drain to New Zealand and Oz as the pay and work life balance is better
3) some medical specialities (emergency medicine and psychiatry are top in my mind) have recruitment crises and recruitment abroad is a.good short to medium term solution given the training times involved.

[Sligub]

The sources I am using are the WHO per capita spend on healthcare and the swiss pay aprox $7000 to the Uk $3500 and the dutch pay $5000 so not $200 more but $3500 more.

The massive state intervention into the medical insurance market is that you are required to have insurance, insurance companies are required to offer a minimum level (which is comparable to NHS levels) regardless of pre existing conditions which massively skew the tables and market.

Your argument for choice goes for everything, I dont like war therefore I shouldn't pay for the army, I live in the lowest crime area of the country so I shouldn't pay for the police, I dont have kids so no to paying for schools, I live in the country so no street lights so no council tax. Tax is a system of taking money for the things that society at large have decided should be paid for collectively. You are in the very small minority in the UK who would get rid of the NHS (IMO thankfully)

[Agricola]

The sources I am using are the WHO per capita spend on healthcare and the swiss pay aprox $7000 to the Uk $3500 and the dutch pay $5000 so not $200 more but $3500 more.

The massive state intervention into the medical insurance market is that you are required to have insurance, insurance companies are required to offer a minimum level (which is comparable to NHS levels) regardless of pre existing conditions which massively skew the tables and market.

Your argument for choice goes for everything, I dont like war therefore I shouldn't pay for the army, I live in the lowest crime area of the country so I shouldn't pay for the police, I dont have kids so no to paying for schools, I live in the country so no street lights so no council tax. Tax is a system of taking money for the things that society at large have decided should be paid for collectively. You are in the very small minority in the UK who would get rid of the NHS (IMO thankfully)

I see the WHO statics you're using. I think, here's my source,

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jun/30/healthcare-spending-world-country

I was quoting the figure for government spending on health care where it seems you were quoting the figure for per capita spending as a whole (both private and public). So I would argue that again you've used statistics to prescribe the truth and we could go back and forth using per capita statistics to do so all day.

I agree there is massive intervention in the medical insurance market. I think people who offer something as important as medical insurance should be subject to Government regulation.

I agree that my argument for choice goes for everything. Think about it, if Tony Blair decided to declare war on Iraq then he'd have to fund it with donations from those who were for the Iraqi invasion and wished to fund it. The same goes for Afghanistan. If you want a fight then you should pay for it out of your pocket and you can join the army and die for Tony Blair.
As for services such as the Police, fire service and law courts I believe they are essential services that are the whole point in having a government. I do believe that a small tax should be permitted to run those services.
Schools sure let them all go private. You don't have kids then you don't pay. Besides the education system is collapsing our children are behind children from third world nations as it stands today. Utterly disgraceful in my opinion.
Your description of tax is way off. Tax is not "a system of taking money for the things that society at large have decided should be paid for collectively."
First of all Tax is taken from people against their will on pain of imprisonment, it is not voluntary and society does not collectively decide how much is taxed nor how it is spent. Government extracts tax through violence (ironically funded by that very tax). Government then proceeds to spend it on whatever it desires. For instance our Government extracts tax against our will and sends that money on a journey into the hands of Al Queda murders in Syria ... did I miss the vote on that one? I don't recall when "society" decided to do that. What about Afghanistan? Tax was taken to pay for killing strangers and young men's lives lost ... was I asleep when we all decided our tax was going to be spent on killing Afghans? What about the money we send off to Brussels everyday? Did society have a vote on how much we would be taxed to foot the bill? What about that MP pay rise of 11%? When did you get the message to decide collectively on that one because again I missed it!

Some members of our society, nay most, seem very happy forcing others to subsidise their lifestyles, on pain of imprisonment. I find that attitude quite abhorrent.

[Sligub]

I asked for a country that was cheaper overall for the same level of health care that includes both government and private funding you provided three countries and I pointed out that two of the three were much more expensive than the UK system

Exactly you've decided that police, fire service and the courts are required
I've decided that the NHS, collective defense, police, fire service the courts and about a million more are required and the majority agree with me.

We live in a representative democracy so yes you did vote on all those things when you elected your representative and the laws are only the collective will of society as a whole so if you want a change in the collection of Tax then you need to change the collective will of the people. If you want direct democracy then you need to get enough support to enter parliament and the change our laws to require it

[tommy]

@Tommy

It seems to be a popular thing to blame everything on immigrants. It was not my experience yesterday, the problem seemed to be
1 Drunk people minor or no injures escorted by police
2 scum bag drug addicts escorted by police
3 Chavs that had been fighting escorted by police
4 Chavs that had stolen a car and crashed it(note the chavs got treatment before the innocent couple they crashed into)

from the way all the above spoke dressed smelt and behaved, it would be a fair assumption to say that they make no contribution to society financial or other.

All of them were what you would call native british.

on the other hand

every single health care professional above the rank of a nurse was a immigrant.
the doctor was
the consultant was
the surgeon was
the anaesthesiologist was

Now I am not daft of course I know that not every native british person is a chav and not every immigrant is a professional.

Unfortunately the tabloid press, ukip, edl and such would have people believe That every immigrant was.

As I said, I don't blame migrants or refugees for wanting to take advantage of an insane system. My point is valid for all groups as stated in my post, if people are allowed to live off the proceeds of other peoples hard work the country will eventually fall apart. I did say in my post that this is true of nationals and immigrants equally. I'm not going to continue on this thread as I have strongly conflicting feelings on the subject, on the one side I'm a humane caring person but on the other side I am a realist. If you can't afford something then you don't get to play.
The strain on the NHS is relevant too, there have always been chavs and muppets putting a strain on the system and that needs addressing but my doctors surgery is getting too many new applications per week at the moment from people wanting free health care. That is not sustainable.
If help anyone if its within my power but not at the cost of my own family, that is how the government should act.
I wasn't blaming migrants, I don't think anyone should get a free ride and anyone who thinks differently is daft IMO.

[Eddie]

Lets axe the MHRA, what could possibly go wrong with no regulation of drugs and medical equipment?

[PeeJay]

Lets axe the MHRA, what could possibly go wrong with no regulation of drugs and medical equipment?

I'll ask my friend Viktor... images-1.jpeg