rant time about the waste of space NHS

[rascal]

I think your first three sentences prove my point, do they not? You're wrong in your assumption that if it's approved for use in Europe it can be bought and prescribed by a private hospital in the UK. Any product approved by the EMEA still requires licensing from the MHRA to be sold in this country.
yip but if its all ready on sale in the UK it has the MHRA license and you can parrel import it from anywhere in Europe so anything you want to buy from a UK supplier is all ready MHRA approved so if you think the price is too high you can just import it from elsewhere this was the point I was trying to make if you want to use something not availble in the UK of course you should have to pay for approval (and you cant complain about UK price fixing here as there is no UK price so irrelevent)
Do I believe that if state subsidised health care were scrapped then private health care would cost less? Honestly I think it would cost more for some namely those with severe illnesses but for those without (the vast majority of the population) it would cost a lot less. Think about it, most of us are healthy and don't need to go to the GP or the hospital that often through our 20's, 30's and even 40's. So there's a good 3 decades to get a policy and pay into it and with prices down you'd get better bang for your buck
(health insurance is not a savings plan its a monthly cost like car insurance or home insurance. What you are suggesting is people pay into a pot to pay for old age but what happens why that money runs out? State picks up the cost but you have no pension or house and state has to pick up those costs as well)

I understand it's an unpopular idea but I've lived in abroad for over 15 years in countries where I paid in private hospitals and government subsidies were a tiny fraction of what most socialist European states pay out at the moment. I've seen it work, I've noted the better quality of treatment and staff and compared it to our system that manages to suck and blow at the same time. Yet is constantly defended by an army of people who.ve experienced nothing but socialised health care
(seen it myself but look at the cost per head for that county and take into account our welfare state that protects people so someone giving all there money to a hospital as they are terminal means the government have to step in and the person would end up on benefits)

Would tax go down? In this country I doubt it would happen willingly.

Would not happen full stop

NHS budget has risen by 100% (adjusted for inflation) since its inception. Also the last time the NHS budget didn't go up was when Churchill was in power. It's odd you defend this incredible rise in costs and budget while quality of service and standards of staff are falling like a stone in a lake. And you're right a cut to a service does not mean they get less money, it hasn't for over 60 years! So I doubt they'll start now!

Standard of living of people have changed a lot since the 1950's the cost of everything has gone up above inflation in cost to manufacture maintain so has life expectancy as well as the amount of things we can treat . Its also more like 100x it has increased by the budget of the NHS

You talk about prescriptions and costing and its inefficiencies. I agree. I just don't think I should have to pay for some paedophile to get anti-depressants or a drug addict morphine. The difference between you and me is that I want a choice as to whether I pay for Abu Hamza's visits to the GP or not.

Quite frankly I think there should be a vote on who wants to pay for the NHS and who doesn't. The ones that vote they do will get sent an itemised bill each month and have the privilege of free prescriptions and so on. The rest get to go private ... problem solved.

Yeah but the whole way this country is set up this would not work too many people would opt out of paying then not have the money to pay when needed so the government would step in one way or another either paying the hospital or paying the person benefits when they had to become unemployed due to being sick and became bankrupt to pay the hospital

[Sligub]

Singapore has a public health care system and you pay into a Government insurance product so not really a private system?

Switzerland pays twice as much as the Uk per capita on health and massive state intervention into the system (if your insurance premium is more than 8% they pay and insurence companies cant refuse coverage based on existing conditions.

The netherlands pay 1.5 times as much as the UK

[ValeTudoGuy]

I'm going to say that it is hospital dependent. Nurses ate generally helpful and have a good attitude to patient care. It's the managers that create bad vibes. As an emergency services worker (I think peejay and mattyhall will agree) you get pissed about by those above you. Pissed on by the government and have so much policy and regulations that doing your job is soul destroying. If you saw what emergency service workers were really like you see a very dark sense of humour and a passion to help those who really need it. O got fed up with listening to life's eternal whingers.

Dunc..... this is Marc... Police for 5 years

[butternutsquashpie]

Dunc..... this is Marc... Police for 5 years

no! you're lying.
i thought they were called bobbies......

Addendum. This thread is amazing.

[Sean]

Sounds bad news mate i think health care in general is shocking i have private healthcare in work but cant insure my son because he had a stroke at birth. Which is shocking


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[cigarmo]

Thank you all for the well wishes.

Finally home and all is well, have to go to a walk in centre every day to have dressing changed.so I am guessing that will be a few hours a day lost for a week.

I cant comment on the USA UK health care debate as I dont have that much knowledge on the subject.

I will say that I personally think that the current system appears to be over run and failing. I also think that the system set up is unfair.

[cigarmo]

Sounds bad news mate i think health care in general is shocking i have private healthcare in work but cant insure my son because he had a stroke at birth. Which is shocking


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I have private health care mate but I was surprised to learn that emergency treatment is not covered, I will be looking into it on monday to see if any company offers this.

[rascal]

I have private health care mate but I was surprised to learn that emergency treatment is not covered, I will be looking into it on monday to see if any company offers this.

They wont do mo as they dont have a&e setup in private hospitals (there's not that many either) and they cant prioritise you at the nhs A&e so the private health care would be paying the NHS for the same service they would have given you for free and theres no way they will do that. Great to hear the missus is on the mend though

[butternutsquashpie]

oh i just read this thread and apparently it's actually something meaningful by Mo...

good to hear on that side. you're also quite the trooper staying with her through that.
very nice and hope the recovery isn't too troublesome, too!!

[groundhog]

Glad to hear you're both home and all is well.

[Agricola]

Yeah but the whole way this country is set up this would not work too many people would opt out of paying then not have the money to pay when needed so the government would step in one way or another either paying the hospital or paying the person benefits when they had to become unemployed due to being sick and became bankrupt to pay the hospital

You're right, because most people are dissatisfied with the NHS and the service is getting worse not better. The government wouldn't be forced to step in when people opt out. If you take a look at Singapore or Switzerland the Government only regulates the insurance side. I believe it's law that a Swiss citizen has health insurance. And considering you're going to be living in your body until you die wouldn't it be prudent to get medical insurance?

The UK and every other socialist government is insolvent (bankrupt) already. In reality the UK government already does what you laid out in your scenario. Taxes are extracted from employed citizens to subsidise unemployed citizens. It pays their National Insurance when they're on the dole.

The NHS system is one where no-one gets a fair deal. It's a system of givers and takers. Rarely would anyone individual receive the value in health care that they paid out in National Insurance tax. You either pay more in than you get out or less in than you get out. The majority get more out than they pay in, that's why it remains popular amongst the majority.

Unfortunately the UK has become a society of takers, if you're not a taker then you're being milked until you wither away and the herd move on to the next victim. The NHS is just another example amongst the many institution in this once great society intended to help its citizens. Turned into virulent beast that feeds ravenously upon those who we rely upon to invest money in factories, jobs and improvement of society as a whole. They've all gone now, put their wealth abroad so that our beast of a government can't feed upon it. And we're left with crumbling social welfare systems propped up by massive debt.

[tommy]

[QUOTE=Agricola;250042]You're right, because most people are dissatisfied with the NHS and the service is getting worse not better. The government wouldn't be forced to step in when people opt out. If you take a look at Singapore or Switzerland the Government only regulates the insurance side. I believe it's law that a Swiss citizen has health insurance. And considering you're going to be living in your body until you die wouldn't it be prudent to get medical insurance?

The UK and every other socialist government is insolvent (bankrupt) already. In reality the UK government already does what you laid out in your scenario. Taxes are extracted from employed citizens to subsidise unemployed citizens. It pays their National Insurance when they're on the dole.

The NHS system is one where no-one gets a fair deal. It's a system of givers and takers. Rarely would anyone individual receive the value in health care that they paid out in National Insurance tax. You either pay more in than you get out or less in than you get out. The majority get more out than they pay in, that's why it remains popular amongst the majority.

Unfortunately the UK has become a society of takers, if you're not a taker then you're being milked until you wither away and the herd move on to the next victim. The NHS is just another example amongst the many institution in this once great society intended to help its citizens. Turned into virulent beast that feeds ravenously upon those who we rely upon to invest money in factories, jobs and improvement of society as a whole. They've all gone now, put their wealth abroad so that our beast of a government can't feed upon it. And we're left with crumbling social welfare systems propped up by massive debt.[
I didn't want to get involved in this because my views will probably offend some people however I will say that our government is killing our country by borrowing money from china in order to go to war alongside America in conflicts we have no business with which then leaves us responsible for the people effected in said countries who then come here to live on the dole. To make it worse we open our doors to a seemingly unlimited number of immigrants who can claim benefits and medical aid from the moment they set foot on British soil. IMO if you are a financial immigrant you should have no entitlement to benefits of any kind including medical treatment until you have paid taxes and National Insurance for at least five years. Now we have Romania too, how can we possibly look after ourselves when we are borrowing money to "help" other people. I'm all for helping my fellow man and am pretty generous with my time, emotions and the tangible things but I can clearly see that our policies need to change to something like Australia's for us to have even a chance of moving into solvency as a country. We are not a rich country, we simply can't keep being the worlds airbag.
I'm not racist, I don't blame financial immigrants for wanting and needing more, for me the government (past and present) are responsible for neglecting its own people. Our NHS is imploding under the sheer stress of all this, c'mon government, follow the Ozzy way. That is my view, productive immigrants are a wonderful boost to our economy but we need to know that someone traveling here to live is going to be an asset not a burden, the only exception being genuine refugees. Oh and to all the blathers that were born here and use the system to get a free ride, shame on you, you deserve to be cut off from your benefits, medical care, water, power and government help of any kind.
That's my opinion, I'm genuinely sorry if it offends but we had an NHS that worked not that long ago and it's now crap.
I'll wait here for the bollocking and labelling that will follow.

[Agricola]

Singapore has a public health care system and you pay into a Government insurance product so not really a private system?

Switzerland pays twice as much as the UK per capita on health and massive state intervention into the system (if your insurance premium is more than 8% they pay and insurence companies cant refuse coverage based on existing conditions.

The netherlands pay 1.5 times as much as the UK

"Singapore has a non-modified universal healthcare system where the government ensures affordability of healthcare within the public health system, largely through a system of compulsory savings, subsidies, and price controls. Singapore's system uses a combination of compulsory savings from payroll deductions to provide subsidies within a nationalized health insurance plan known as Medisave. Within Medisave, each citizen accumulates funds that are individually tracked, and such funds can be pooled within and across an entire extended family. The vast majority of Singapore citizens have substantial savings in this scheme. One of three levels of subsidy is chosen by the patient at the time of the healthcare episode."

So yes there are some subsidies via savings through payroll deductions into a health insurance plan called Medisave. Basically it's a health insurance plan but government owned. What's the difference you ask between that and National Insurance? Well in Medisave you can track your funds and they are utilized to pay for healthcare when needed. National Insurance is a straight up tax directly and you pay on pain of imprisonment, and there is no way to track it.

"A key principle of Singapore's national health scheme is that no medical service is provided free of charge, regardless of the level of subsidy, even within the public healthcare system. This mechanism is intended to reduce the overutilisation of healthcare services, a phenomenon often seen in fully subsidised universal health insurance systems. Out-of-pocket charges vary considerably for each service and level of subsidy. At the highest level of subsidy, although each out-of-pocket expense is typically small, costs can accumulate and become substantial for patients and families. At the lowest level, the subsidy is in effect nonexistent, and patients are treated like private patients, even within the public system."

So effectively unless you've got an expensive treatment like cancer there are no subsidies involved and if there were those subsidies come from your medisave pool which you saved into. The money is not extracted from another citizen so that you may pay to have an anal bleaching!

"Approximately 70-80% of Singaporeans obtain their medical care within the public health system. Overall government spending on healthcare amounts to only 3-4% of annual GDP,^{[dubious– discuss]} partly because government expenditure on healthcare in the private system is extremely low.Singapore currently has the lowest infant mortality rate in the world (equalled only by Iceland) and among the highest life expectancies from birth, according to the World Health Organization.^[3]"


"Singapore has "one of the most successful healthcare systems in the world, in terms of both efficiency in financing and the results achieved in community health outcomes," according to an analysis by global consulting firm Towers Watson.^[4] The government regularly adjusts policies to actively regulate "the supply and prices of healthcare services in the country" in an attempt to keep costs in check. However, for the most part the government does not directly regulate the costs of private medical care. These costs are largely subject to market forces, and vary enormously within the private sector, depending on the medical specialty and service provided."

So it sounds good to me, even the government medicare insurance is directly linked to how much I've paid in and I track it and I can only select the level of "subsidy" according to what I have saved. And they pay less, have the lowest infant mortality in the world and the longest life expectancy ... kind of sucks to be us don't you think?

Like I said the insurance is regulated by the government, that's what I think they are there for to protect us from fraud.

As for Switzerland,

"The insured person pays the insurance premium for the basic plan up to 8% of their personal income. If a premium is higher than this, the government gives the insured person a cash subsidy to pay for any additional premium.^[2]"

So yes, if the monthly premium is 8% or above your wage then you get a subsidy to pay off the premium. Either that or if there is a lower premium out there you purchase that policy with the lower premium. Basic health insurance is compulsory by law, but its premiums are regulated and by law is non profit.

There are cases when patients are subsidised such as pregnancies, what a subsidy means in Switzerland is very different from the UK. In the UK a pregnant women is 100% subsidised by the tax payer. In Switzerland she has to pay into the basic health insurance plan every month. Her subsidy is in the form of no deductible being required and she pays no 10% of the cost to cover excess.

"In 2014, the average monthly compulsory basic health insurance premiums (with accident insurance) in Switzerland are the following:^[12]

• CHF 396.12 (PPP-adjusted US$ 243) for an adult (age 26+)
• CHF 363.55 (PPP-adjusted $ 223) for a young adult (age 19–25)
• CHF 91.52 (PPP-adjusted $ 56.14) for a child (age 0–18)"

So what are we talking here 2/3rds the cost of a box of Siglo I's for me? A Behike for my son ... sorry those are UK prices ... in Switzerland cigars are less than half the price they go for here!

There is no "massive state intervention" if there is please quote your source.

Do the Swiss government spend more per capita on their population than ours? Yes, about $200 more per person. But in return they get nearly twice as many nurses per capita than the UK. Do they spend more as a percentage of GDP? Yes they spend 11.4% as opposed to our 9.6%. Yet they spend a fraction of the real amount our government spends on Healthcare (about 10% I think), tax their population a fraction of what our government tax them and their national debt is less than 10% of our burgeoning national debt. So who would you say is getting a better deal? The Swiss with a mainly privatised healthcare system, insurance regulated and subsidised, or the UK with a 100% subsidised system? I'd be willing to bet there's no "Liverpool Pathway" in Switzerland! And they have cheap cigars!

The Netherlands is 1.5 times more expensive? I assume that must be an average since you didn't link your source. Which means there are no doubt many hospitals that are much cheaper and of course in the Netherlands I would have the choice.

The trouble with statistics is that I can bend them to say what I want just as you can bend them to say what you want.

The only truth is that I want choice and others don't want me to have the choice so I am supressed and forced to pay into a system I despise on pain of imprisonment. Well my family members fought two world wars against that sort of tyranny, but as Nietzsche said "He whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster". We fought against socialism for decades and now we've become that burgeoning beast. Cracking apart under its own enormity, exactly as every other socialist country has in the past. Our government is so indebted it can never pay off its loans. If interest rates rose higher they could not afford the interest payments. Yet we borrow ?100+ billion a year, increasing our debt until at some point our creditors will call in those debts and no-one will lend us money. That day is yet to come, but not so far off that most people on this forum will not see it. So I say we better get used to the idea of private health care because it's coming. Not because it's better. Not because the people want it. But because creditors will call our bluff and there will be no way to pay for Nationalised health care.

Though I'm probably wrong and one day the Government pays off the debts it ran up in our name and streamlines the NHS ... but I still want freedom of choice.

[Agricola]

Tommy: "I didn't want to get involved in this because my views will probably offend some people however I will say that our government is killing our country by borrowing money from china in order to go to war alongside America in conflicts we have no business with which then leaves us responsible for the people effected in said countries who then come here to live on the dole. To make it worse we open our doors to a seemingly unlimited number of immigrants who can claim benefits and medical aid from the moment they set foot on British soil. IMO if you are a financial immigrant you should have no entitlement to benefits of any kind including medical treatment until you have paid taxes and National Insurance for at least five years. Now we have Romania too, how can we possibly look after ourselves when we are borrowing money to "help" other people. I'm all for helping my fellow man and am pretty generous with my time, emotions and the tangible things but I can clearly see that our policies need to change to something like Australia's for us to have even a chance of moving into solvency as a country. We are not a rich country, we simply can't keep being the worlds airbag.
I'm not racist, I don't blame financial immigrants for wanting and needing more, for me the government (past and present) are responsible for neglecting its own people. Our NHS is imploding under the sheer stress of all this, c'mon government, follow the Ozzy way. That is my view, productive immigrants are a wonderful boost to our economy but we need to know that someone traveling here to live is going to be an asset not a burden, the only exception being genuine refugees. Oh and to all the blathers that were born here and use the system to get a free ride, shame on you, you deserve to be cut off from your benefits, medical care, water, power and government help of any kind.
That's my opinion, I'm genuinely sorry if it offends but we had an NHS that worked not that long ago and it's now crap.
I'll wait here for the bollocking and labelling that will follow"

I agree with you and I see no reason you should feel ashamed for trying to make your country a better place for your fellow citizen.

As for helping citizens of other countries, well that's their government's problem, isn't it?

I remember reading the Odyssey when Odysseus was screaming to the Gods for help and Athene replied "The Gods cannot do for man what man must do for himself!"
It may sound cold and cruel but if our own citizens are laying dead for days unnoticed in hospital beds and our government has a policy to deliberately starve patients to death ... As Shakespeare would say "There is something rotten in the State of Great Britain!"

[EdBlackadder]

I probably shouldn't get involved here as I am NHS staff but firstly I'm glad your other half had her surgery and hope her recovery is swift and uncomplicated.

The NHS is facing constant funding cuts with its funding freeze. What isn't spoken about in the funding debate is that healthcare is economically very expensive and to maintain standards (ie give uptodate treatments) requires investment. Financially this is recognised by healthcare having its own separate inflation rate which is generally a couple of pints higher than base rate. The freeze has been starving the NHS, just like the police etc, and this has unfortunately affected frontline services.

Despite this, the NHS manages to deliver a hell of a lot of bang for its buck because it doesn't need to run as a profit. Yes, they're are too many managers but its still more cost effective than the alternatives.

Our current situation strongly parallels Sweden, far more so than the Us or anywhere else. They had a system almost the same as our NHS and their government opened up private involvement and reduced state funding about ten years before us. Their state spending had gone through the roof and they're now faced with worsening health inequalities as noone will work the less profitable rural areas.

The NHS is far from perfect but it is a very good healthcare system. That doesn't mean that there aren't individual cases where things go wrong. We're actually better at picking up larger problems because of the oversight we have had since Bristol in the late 90s, far more so than the states.

Having said that, there are trusts which are in trouble. Usually the vicious cycle of poor funding, reduced staffing, use of more expensive agency/locum straight to do the gaps, even less funding takes hold and leaves the place over stressed and under staffed. I've worked in such a trust once and it was awful for patients and staff. I must say that even the cancelling elective or minor surgery only really happened if done of the surgery turned out to not be so minor and the list ran so late it was deemed unsafe for the team to continue to operate due to fatigue. Drunks and junkies certainly have never jumped the list unless they were also more unwell or were posing a risk to those around them, in my experience.

Sorry for the wall of text and also that your other half didn't have a good experience. I still think, having looked into this and worked in the system, that the NHS is overall a damn good system that's being eroded and starved by our political class for a mixture ideological reasons and financial gain.