rant time about the waste of space NHS

[cigarmo]

Worst hospitals that is. Missed that bit

[Sligub]

I guess the government has a monopoly on emergency surgery since they run the ambulances and you're always taken to the nearest state owned hospital to be treated. And that would be the most likely answer for why the drunks jump the queue with their Police escort.

The irony is that private healthcare is expensive because of state subsidised healthcare. The state holds the system in an iron grip with a monopoly on the choice side and a monopsony on the price side. Since they get to set the market price of medical treatments, appliances and labour private hospitals are stuck paying those prices.

The NHS is just another in a long line of welfare for the rich scams, played on the tax payer. They extort money from you and use it for the betterment of mankind by setting up a universal health system. Who gets the contracts to supply the drugs and medical equipment? Who gets the contract to hire labour? Who gets the contracts to build hospitals? Who gets the contract to provide linen? Who gets the contract to provide ambulances? I think you get the idea, and in there are hoards of middle men brokering deals and making a fortune. Along with lobbyists placing large quantities of cash in Honourable member's back pockets.

Prices are jacked up so that everyone gets a cut and they make money and have their medical treatment done abroad in a decent hospital. The rest of us are sat on waiting lists while George Best jumps the queue and someone dies because there's one less liver to go round. Little of the money pumped into the health system reaches those who paid in.

Though they always talk about cutting back on the NHS they never will. Oh they'll shut down hospitals and cut care to us but for some odd mysterious reason ... drum roll ... the NHS budget gets bigger and bigger!

I wonder where that extra money is going when they're constantly closing hospitals and cutting back on staff every year? I remember talk, since I was a kid, about getting more for less and making it more efficient. **** me, the NHS budget should be less than Boris Johnson's tab at his barbers by this point should it not? Even if there was one hospital with one nurse left in the country, the bill would still be rising. It's just a scam, nothing more.

You are forced to use it, not because you want to, or because it provides great healthcare but because the government has run everyone else out of town and you have to pay for their National Holdup Scam on pain of imprisonment.

People will say how the NHS is the cheapest option, sure because they control the price of everything you need to run a hospital and their customers have no choice but to use them.

People will say we have the best healthcare in the world, actually we don't. Maybe when Churchill was Prime Minister but not today. I've been to countries with private healthcare that was actually a lot cheaper than paying National Insurance. Their doctors were motivated, nurses attentive and I was treated as a valuable customer.

Well I hope your Girl Friend gets her treatment. But until they privatise the NHS we'll remain on this downward trend.

Just my opinion, and my rant!

So explain how the USA gets better value from its private system? They spend twice per capita on health and yet, the poor don't get treatment and the UK health system is constantly rated higher than US. In fact the private American system is the most expensive system and is often rated well bellow the top 20 healthcare systems in the world.

[Joncon]

An interesting video on this subject.

http://youtu.be/qSjGouBmo0M

[rascal]

Not just that but how can the NHS be rigging the price of equipment and medicine to private hospitals when they same private hospitals can just source there stuff from any country in the world or different suppliers. Also dont really see the point you get rid of the NHS do you think they will cut the national insurance but you may get your wish anyway as the tories are removing the cap on the amount of private funding NHS hospitals can receive (ie for doing private operations or lab work) well its actually worse than that really as they are going to be cutting the funding and expecting the hospital to pick up private funding and this is going to be a yearly cut so basically they are selling off the NHS suppose its the last thing for them to sell off anyway

[Agricola]

So explain how the USA gets better value from its private system? They spend twice per capita on health and yet, the poor don't get treatment and the UK health system is constantly rated higher than US. In fact the private American system is the most expensive system and is often rated well bellow the top 20 healthcare systems in the world.

The U.S.A hasn't had private healthcare since the 1960's. at least 70% of care is subsidised by Medicaid. Most of Americans for the last 40 years have been using state healthcare. Its a federal law that hospitals must provide healthcare to those whose incomes are at or less than 133% of the poverty line, this also includes other groups such as pensioners, pregnant women, parents and guardians of eligible children, disabled ect ... (it's a long list).

This has had the effect of pushing up costs for everyone who pays through medical insurance, hospitals since the 1960's were slapping on massive bills and getting the patient to sign off. When the doctor treats granny he'd put an extra $500 fee and say "Well the government pays it, so just sign here". The costs of healthcare skyrocketed, the U.S.A. hasn't had private healthcare free of state monopoly and monopsony since the 1960's.

I frequently hear the question you have asked here, and it is always asked in ignorance of the true situation of American healthcare. The myth that the U.S.A. has a totally private system free from government intervention has always been common ignorance in European countries. Usually used to justify their "superior" healthcare. When the irony is they are merely comparing their state run scam against another.

Now Obama is trying to totally run private healthcare out of the market and force people to pay his National Insurance policy in the belief (or lie?) that it will make medical care cheaper. But if increasing state intervention has only pushed prices up since the 60's, why would doubling down on it lower the price?

Still it's no wonder American healthcare is so low rated since they spend more on subsidised healthcare than anyone else in the world!

[Sligub]

So medicaid that accounts for less than a quarter of health funding in the US explains why there health care system is twice as expensive as ours? Could it possibly be that when you privatize healthcare the question stops being what treatment suits my patient and ends up being what treatment will work but costs the most/makes me the most profit. Also if you remove medicaid from the american system who pays for the poor, the recently redundent, the children of the poor, the retired? Just let them die?

[Agricola]

Not just that but how can the NHS be rigging the price of equipment and medicine to private hospitals when they same private hospitals can just source there stuff from any country in the world or different suppliers. Also dont really see the point you get rid of the NHS do you think they will cut the national insurance but you may get your wish anyway as the tories are removing the cap on the amount of private funding NHS hospitals can receive (ie for doing private operations or lab work) well its actually worse than that really as they are going to be cutting the funding and expecting the hospital to pick up private funding and this is going to be a yearly cut so basically they are selling off the NHS suppose its the last thing for them to sell off anyway

Heard the same story for years about cutting funding and all the arguments about suppliers and so forth. Basically you can't supply medical equipment or drugs or anything without ... drum roll ... a government license! So no, you can't buy from any country or supplier nor can they supply you . This is why the government has a monopsony. Only government approved drugs, medical equipment and suppliers are permitted to sell to private hospitals ... I wonder if any of those lucky individuals have friends in parliament?

Get rid of the NHS? They'll never do it willingly. It's a ?100 billion a year scam that keeps growing. Like I said if they had one hospital with one nurse and one doctor and one guy to turn the lights on and off in the whole of the UK ... it'd still cost us ?100 billion. For them to sell it off would be akin to killing the goose that lays the golden egg!

Remember the NHS is not free medical care ... it costs ?100 billion a year and is rising. It might seem free but every time you buy your petrol you're paying for it. Every time you buy your cigars your paying for someone's boob job or some 30 stone woman's gastric band. Because I'd bet good money that the national insurance tax does not cover ?100 billion each year!

But most are happy with the NHS so I guess it's just my tough luck /shrug

[Sligub]

Please every safety critical industry in every country has licencing and government approval systems and it's not to make money it's so some cheap as airline/hospital/bus/train/catering company doest cut a corner or 56 for a quick buck.

Do I trust our/any government? Not really.

Do I trust industry? Fuck no

Both need to be regulated industry by government and government by us.

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[Budgie Smuggler]

UK Conspiracy Forum


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[rascal]

Heard the same story for years about cutting funding and all the arguments about suppliers and so forth. Basically you can't supply medical equipment or drugs or anything without ... drum roll ... a government license! So no, you can't buy from any country or supplier nor can they supply you . This is why the government has a monopsony. Only government approved drugs, medical equipment and suppliers are permitted to sell to private hospitals ... I wonder if any of those lucky individuals have friends in parliament?

Get rid of the NHS? They'll never do it willingly. It's a ?100 billion a year scam that keeps growing. Like I said if they had one hospital with one nurse and one doctor and one guy to turn the lights on and off in the whole of the UK ... it'd still cost us ?100 billion. For them to sell it off would be akin to killing the goose that lays the golden egg!

Remember the NHS is not free medical care ... it costs ?100 billion a year and is rising. It might seem free but every time you buy your petrol you're paying for it. Every time you buy your cigars your paying for someone's boob job or some 30 stone woman's gastric band. Because I'd bet good money that the national insurance tax does not cover ?100 billion each year!

But most are happy with the NHS so I guess it's just my tough luck /shrug

And drumroll you can not stop trade from any European country so you can just buy from any of them as long as the product has all ready had a license for use in the UK. If not you need to jump through a few extra hoops. Do you really belive that if they got rid of the NHS and everyone had to have private care.

1. The amount of tax you pay would go down
2. The cost of healthcare would

(apart from the cost to you cause that would go up as you would have health insurance to pay for)

If so look around at what other countrys spend on healthcare per head is compared to the UK and of course the NHS budget needs to go up every year even with cuts as you have inflation so people wages need to rise and the cost of all the equipment and normal cost go up as well. A cut to a service does not mean they get less money. Just might be they dont get a rise in budget and when costs rise by 5% with inflation thats really a 5% saving that service has to find.

Also national insurance brings in a little over 100 billion every year actually its about 2/3 of what income tax does. But hay maybe you have read too much about how charging for stuff makes it cheaper. Like I bet you think they should never have gave free prescriptions in scotland due to the amount it would cost, though if you looked at the costing done the system in place to charge for prescriptions cost nearly the same amount to run as they collected so really there was no cost to get rid of it.

Ps, wish we had bet some good cigars on the national insurance bit though

[Agricola]

So medicaid that accounts for less than a quarter of health funding in the US explains why there health care system is twice as expensive as ours? Could it possibly be that when you privatize healthcare the question stops being what treatment suits my patient and ends up being what treatment will work but costs the most/makes me the most profit. Also if you remove medicaid from the american system who pays for the poor, the recently redundent, the children of the poor, the retired? Just let them die?

"Government programs directly cover 27.8% of the population (83 million),^[46] including the elderly, disabled, children, veterans, and some of the poor, and federal law mandates public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay. Public spending accounts for between 45% and 56.1% of U.S. health care spending"

Directly the government pays for about 50% of all healthcare in the U.S.A, it pays for about 70+% if you count tax breaks for healthcare (welfare for the rich) and other indirect programs. This is all before we even start considering Obama care.

Subsidised health care accounted for 24.7% of the budget for the United States of America in 2012. I believe this is the figure you were referring to rather than what proportion of total health care it covers in the country, unless you could point out your source.

That 24.7% amounted to nearly $1 trillion and was the most expensive government department, and yes that includes defence which almost made $700 billion and still $200 billion less than social security (did I say how the U.S.A has the biggest welfare system on the planet?).

If you removed this money from the system then private hospitals and health insurance would cost a fraction of what it does now. What about the poor you say and all those people that couldn't afford it? Well there would be charity hospitals which at the moment can't afford to run on donations due to ... drum roll ... expensive costs driven through the roof by state subsidies.

Privatised healthcare along with proper government regulation of the market allows healthcare to flourish. Hospitals don't want to go out of business so they offer the customer the best possible service at the lowest possible price. That's how real businesses that don't suck off the tax payers tit stay afloat. A hospital has a reputation. If people die there or get a bad deal, guess what happens? People stop going there and it goes out of business.

At the moment you have no choice but to go to hospital X where government league tables are the bottom line and everyone is looking to their next paycheque while old ladies are lying in soiled beds despite having expired 2 days ago!

And then there's Doctor Harold Shipman .....

[Sligub]

No my 25% was the Medicaid budget since that was the the program that you blamed for the extra costs. If you remove the entire Government spend in the US the still spend as much as the UK does but don't a large percentage of there population. While I agree that the NHS could be run better this idea that a private health care system would be better is not born out by anything else than a dream that private hospitals wouldn't turn into profit monsters.

Show me a private health care system anywhere in the world that works like you describe? Anywhere that has a private healthcare system that's cheaper and that has 100% coverage irrespective of your ability to pay?

[rascal]

But of course the percentage that the government covers the costs is a higher cost per head as they are covering all people over 65 which is the age group with the largest amount of medical care required? along with the disabled and vets (yes they have to provide care under federal law but they then bankrupt that person to try and get as much money back as possible this is the hospital not government) I know plenty of Americans who are approaching 65 and can not wait as they can then stop paying there 600 USD a month health insurance. If they did not cover the elderly under the state no insurance company would or if they did no person would be able to afford the premium. So is this what you want the UK to become cause it all costs more as the hospitals need to make a profit and so do the insurance companys so in the end who is going to foot that bill you think. It is not going to be run more efficently and save us money that has been proven not to work just look at the railways, electrical water or gas sector.

[Agricola]

And drumroll you can not stop trade from any European country so you can just buy from any of them as long as the product has all ready had a license for use in the UK. If not you need to jump through a few extra hoops. Do you really belive that if they got rid of the NHS and everyone had to have private care.

1. The amount of tax you pay would go down
2. The cost of healthcare would

(apart from the cost to you cause that would go up as you would have health insurance to pay for)

If so look around at what other countrys spend on healthcare per head is compared to the UK and of course the NHS budget needs to go up every year even with cuts as you have inflation so people wages need to rise and the cost of all the equipment and normal cost go up as well. A cut to a service does not mean they get less money. Just might be they dont get a rise in budget and when costs rise by 5% with inflation thats really a 5% saving that service has to find.

Also national insurance brings in a little over 100 billion every year actually its about 2/3 of what income tax does. But hay maybe you have read too much about how charging for stuff makes it cheaper. Like I bet you think they should never have gave free prescriptions in scotland due to the amount it would cost, though if you looked at the costing done the system in place to charge for prescriptions cost nearly the same amount to run as they collected so really there was no cost to get rid of it.

Ps, wish we had bet some good cigars on the national insurance bit though

I think your first three sentences prove my point, do they not? You're wrong in your assumption that if it's approved for use in Europe it can be bought and prescribed by a private hospital in the UK. Any product approved by the EMEA still requires licensing from the MHRA to be sold in this country.

Do I believe that if state subsidised health care were scrapped then private health care would cost less? Honestly I think it would cost more for some namely those with severe illnesses but for those without (the vast majority of the population) it would cost a lot less. Think about it, most of us are healthy and don't need to go to the GP or the hospital that often through our 20's, 30's and even 40's. So there's a good 3 decades to get a policy and pay into it and with prices down you'd get better bang for your buck.

I understand it's an unpopular idea but I've lived in abroad for over 15 years in countries where I paid in private hospitals and government subsidies were a tiny fraction of what most socialist European states pay out at the moment. I've seen it work, I've noted the better quality of treatment and staff and compared it to our system that manages to suck and blow at the same time. Yet is constantly defended by an army of people who.ve experienced nothing but socialised health care.

Would tax go down? In this country I doubt it would happen willingly.

NHS budget has risen by 100% (adjusted for inflation) since its inception. Also the last time the NHS budget didn't go up was when Churchill was in power. It's odd you defend this incredible rise in costs and budget while quality of service and standards of staff are falling like a stone in a lake. And you're right a cut to a service does not mean they get less money, it hasn't for over 60 years! So I doubt they'll start now!

You talk about prescriptions and costing and its inefficiencies. I agree. I just don't think I should have to pay for some paedophile to get anti-depressants or a drug addict morphine. The difference between you and me is that I want a choice as to whether I pay for Abu Hamza's visits to the GP or not.

Quite frankly I think there should be a vote on who wants to pay for the NHS and who doesn't. The ones that vote they do will get sent an itemised bill each month and have the privilege of free prescriptions and so on. The rest get to go private ... problem solved.

[Agricola]

No my 25% was the Medicaid budget since that was the the program that you blamed for the extra costs. If you remove the entire Government spend in the US the still spend as much as the UK does but don't a large percentage of there population. While I agree that the NHS could be run better this idea that a private health care system would be better is not born out by anything else than a dream that private hospitals wouldn't turn into profit monsters.

Show me a private health care system anywhere in the world that works like you describe? Anywhere that has a private healthcare system that's cheaper and that has 100% coverage irrespective of your ability to pay?

Actually the U.S.A spends about $1 trillion dollars a year on health care which is more than any other nation on the face of the planet or In recorded Human history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_United_States_federal_budget

And it covers at least 70% of the population, you have to understand there's a lot of overlap between private and public health care and there are many tax break programs linked to health care. Much of it is not directly obvious, but if you delve deeper (I have a friend who lives in NY luckily) you find there's a lot more going on.

Show you a private health care system like the one I described? That's cheaper with 100% coverage ... oh you just had to ask didn't you?

Singapore - ranked number 6 in best health care systems on the planet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Singapore

The Netherlands - ranked number 17 (I believe 5% is paid by the Government towards some medical bills)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands

Switzerland - ranked number 20 (100% private insurance I believe)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Switzerland