MH17 plane crash

[butternutsquashpie]

Too late to take a boat?

I'm not looking to immigrate!

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Simon-JG-hr]

Ironically, I would envisage that this incident is more likely to see a retreat from hostilities than any ramping up of action. If the current rumours regarding intelligence reports are correct, indirect Russian involvement would probably cause a diplomatic withdrawal of support for the pro-Russian rebels from Putin. He has a very old-school, realist/realpolitik approach to international relations, and whilst far more prone to the use of force to increase influence or power than 'western' leaders, he's also incredibly shrewd as to the potential fall-out of his actions (he knows just how far he can push a situation... neutral civilian casualties would probably be enough to make him a bit nervous).

[Edamski]

Yeah if he can be linked with it he'll first try and destroy the links and then back down subtly.

I'm sure there will be some fallout though.

Lots of finger pointing and not many facts at the minute.

Quite concerning that the rebels claim to have the black box, I'd be quite nervous as to what they would do with it if ao

[butternutsquashpie]

Let's not get into a full blown polly discussion into Ukraine's political situation.

Especially online. Thing right now is just to mourn the losses regarding the innocent civies. Plus we all know politicising a situation too quickly can lead to mugggy outcomes

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Agricola]

Why is no-one here asking the question "Why the hell would you fly a jumbo jet over a warzone?'

I see you guys accusing Russia, Russian seperatists, Ukraine of responsibility. What about the pilot and Malaysian airlines?

All airlines had been warned by both Russia and the Ukraine to avoid flying over the area. Yet the pilot wanted to save fuel by traveling over a warzone rather than skirting around it. He was responsible for nearly 300 lives yet he acted with utter recklessness and flew straight through a warzone where fighter jets had be shot down less than 24 hours previously.

Is Vladimir Putin an evil anti-Christ hell bent on conquering Europe? I don't think so.

Is Kiev interested in shooting down civilian flights? Certainly not.

Do the seperatists want to murder foreign nationals? Doubtful.

Yet El Presidente Obama and his indentured servant (The U.K.) will no doubt jump upon this tragedy and attempt to smear excrement in an attempt to paint it as an atrocity, and of course Vladimir Putin will be the prince of darkness in Washington's ridiculous media play ... "Carry on up Kiev?". Pushing us closer to intervening in a part of the world we have no more business going to than that jumbo jet.

All the time our taxes are funnelled into the Kiev war machine so they may go on slaughtering their own citizens while Russia supplies the seperatists and we argue over who shot down an airliner that had no business flying over a warzone in the first place.

It's a joke how easily we are manipulated through the media to hate a person or people we have never met nor ever will meet, whether they be Ukranian, Russian, Jewish or Palestinian. All because some guy who never had a real job gets up on a lectern and reads some BS off a piece of paper prepared by the people really running our pathetic excuse for government.

Men and women are dying on gurneys in our hospitals, violent criminals are given community orders, the school system is failing our youth, those leaving university with a degree are debt slaves until they reach 40 years of age ... that's if they're lucky enough to get a job working in McDonalds!

But hey don't worry boys and girls, we showed those impoverished Ivans in the Ukraine when we sent our boys over there to bomb them out of house and home! I bet that'll make Putin think twice!

And all the time Obama and his lap dog Cameron are laughing at us.

Don't take sides in all of this, demand the money we send to fund Kiev be spent on making our lives better instead of killing strangers, that would be a victory and it might make this tragedy of an airliner being shot down actually mean something.

Sorry about the rant.

[PeeJay]

Why is no-one here asking the question "Why the hell would you fly a jumbo jet over a warzone?'

What about the pilot and Malaysian airlines?

All airlines had been warned by both Russia and the Ukraine to avoid flying over the area. Yet the pilot wanted to save fuel by traveling over a warzone rather than skirting around it. He was responsible for nearly 300 lives yet he acted with utter recklessness and flew straight through a warzone where fighter jets had be shot down less than 24 hours previously.

Completely agree with this bit especially with their track record this year.

[Simon-JG-hr]

Why is no-one here asking the question "Why the hell would you fly a jumbo jet over a warzone?'

I see you guys accusing Russia, Russian seperatists, Ukraine of responsibility. What about the pilot and Malaysian airlines?

...

It's a joke how easily we are manipulated through the media to hate a person or people we have never met nor ever will meet, whether they be Ukranian, Russian, Jewish or Palestinian. All because some guy who never had a real job gets up on a lectern and reads some BS off a piece of paper prepared by the people really running our pathetic excuse for government.

To the first part, that's exactly the same argument as "she was asking for it" when a scantily clad girl is raped. It was thought, at the time, that the risk was minimal, and the pilot was flying a route which had still been accepted, at that altitude, to be safe. He was acting within accepted norms at the time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing for observers to rant on with the benefit of...

The second half of that... Personally, and I obviously cannot speak for others, I generally ignore anything that the media have to say on anything. There is always an agenda, and as my experience of my own areas of expertise suggest, they are usually totally inaccurate and don't actually know what they're talking about... They're all trained journalists, not diplomats, scientists, environmental experts (insert relevant field here...) My own impressions on events such as these are formed from my experiences in both the Royal Navy and the Foreign Office, and through studying international relations (which has led to teaching strategic studies part-time).

It is interesting that, a few very pertinant and valid points aside, most of your post bears very little semblance to reality.

[Edamski]

The pilot did nothing wrong and if what I'm led to believe is correct then as has been said it was a perfectly acceptable route for passenger airlines to be flying and there was only Air France who where avoiding the route.

The planes that had been shot down where flying at an altitude of ~6500 meters where as the passenger airlines crude at an altitude of 10000 meters meaning they where believed to be out of range of the equipment held by the rebels.

Obviously not the case but as been said hindsight is a wonderful thing

[Agricola]

To the first part, that's exactly the same argument as "she was asking for it" when a scantily clad girl is raped. It was thought, at the time, that the risk was minimal, and the pilot was flying a route which had still been accepted, at that altitude, to be safe. He was acting within accepted norms at the time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing for observers to rant on with the benefit of...

The second half of that... Personally, and I obviously cannot speak for others, I generally ignore anything that the media have to say on anything. There is always an agenda, and as my experience of my own areas of expertise suggest, they are usually totally inaccurate and don't actually know what they're talking about... They're all trained journalists, not diplomats, scientists, environmental experts (insert relevant field here...) My own impressions on events such as these are formed from my experiences in both the Royal Navy and the Foreign Office, and through studying international relations (which has led to teaching strategic studies part-time).

It is interesting that, a few very pertinant and valid points aside, most of your post bears very little semblance to reality.

"In April, the International Civil Aviation Organisation advised carriers to consider alternative routes after outlining ?the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights?.
On Monday, Eurocontrol ? the body that coordinates all traffic across European airspace ? sent out an official note to airmen, known as a Notam, repeating the warning and saying it ?strongly advises? avoiding the airspace.

But many carriers continued to use the route because it was shorter and therefore cheaper."

So he and his carrier were advised more than once not to fly there because of ?the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights?.

Then again this very week all carriers were strongly advised to avoid the airspace. Not only that but Moscow and Kiev also echoed these warnings to avoid airspace over the Ukraine.

The pilot had the choice to heed the warnings and avoid that airspace but he didn't, he went through it despite multiple warnings to save on fuel.
Fine to take the risk for yourself but for 300 people? I wonder if they were consulted before the plane took on what you describe as an acceptable risk? I wonder if it were put to the vote (without hindsight) and you were on that flight, how would you have voted? Arrive an hour late or fly through a war zone where there was "possible existence of serious risks to the safety". I wonder if your children were with you which way you would have voted?


And to the person that compared this to rape, rape does not happen by accident (at least in my reality) so it is an inaccurate analogy. It is the difference between a tragedy and atrocity, the former is an accident the latter is not.

It's easy to sit back and state most of what I say bears little semblance to reality without even taking the time to point out my fault.
Really I thought the people here were above throwing petty insults and smears at one another. Still it certainly is a lot easier to discredit someone's opinion with snide remarks, rather than make your argument.

[tommy]

Does the pilot of an airline really have the last word on route? Yes officially they have got that power but in reality they would be under pressure to run on schedule and under budget, you could argue that he should of stood firm but we all have families to feed and there's at least a good chance that he may have felt his job were at risk if he made waves. I'm not stating facts here but opening up a possible cause for the decision. I'm also not saying it's ok but that it seems like a feasible reason for this bad choice. Shareholders won't want every flight on this route to be down by X amount for an unknown period of time. Lost revenue could add up to a significant amount and I'm pretty certain that the route would have been discussed and pilots given instructions on the company line. It's a theory but damning this pilot without all the facts isn't helpful to anyone. This is awful!


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[Sean]

MH17 plane crash

Sad news this as deano said there is going to be many theories about it. Did anyone watch the programme about this


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[Agricola]

Does the pilot of an airline really have the last word on route? Yes officially they have got that power but in reality they would be under pressure to run on schedule and under budget, you could argue that he should of stood firm but we all have families to feed and there's at least a good chance that he may have felt his job were at risk if he made waves. I'm not stating facts here but opening up a possible cause for the decision. I'm also not saying it's ok but that it seems like a feasible reason for this bad choice. Shareholders won't want every flight on this route to be down by X amount for an unknown period of time. Lost revenue could add up to a significant amount and I'm pretty certain that the route would have been discussed and pilots given instructions on the company line. It's a theory but damning this pilot without all the facts isn't helpful to anyone. This is awful!


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I agree. My beef with him/the airline is that no passenger was informed about this decision. If the passengers were as aware of the situation as the pilot and the airlines yet still boarded the flight then that's their decision. But they were not told. I believe the pilot and the airline as well as whoever fired that anti-air missile all hold responsibility in this situation.

The next time I take an international flight I think I'll be inquiring as to the flight plan before I step aboard since they obviously cannot be trusted with responsibility for my safety, or their employees and I'm sure their share holders will be running to the exit.

[tommy]

Yeah they shouldn't of gone that route, it is possible to view the planned route but whom knows about it? No one would expect there to be an issue and would expect to be informed of the danger. It's not enough to say that the route was public knowledge. I don't even think thesis or any other airline have a right to take any unnecessary risk, even with consent!

[Andy 84]

Malaysian Airlines can't catch a break! To be fair lots of civilian aircraft were flying over Ukraine that day. Perhaps the NOTAM wasn't robust enough but when it comes to routing the pilot would've been given a pre-planned route/briefing pack put together by the airlines operations department. They obviously didn't think that they would be in any danger at that altitude however you'd have to say the Ukraine has a bit of a reputation for misidentifying aircraft and shooting them down. At FL33 a spotter would likely have some trouble spotting the difference between a 777 and AN26.