thoughts on yesterday's murder in woolwich....

[Eddie]

I think we need to get the definition of terrorism right. Terrorism to me is killing of innocent ...

If Puff Scotty (sorry mate) came to your house and stabbed you to death you would be innocent, but it wouldn't be an act of terror. IMO.

[sheppsea]

If Puff Scotty (sorry mate) came to your house and stabbed you to death you would be innocent, but it wouldn't be an act of terror. IMO.

If it was a psychopath who just wanted to kill someone then I agree, it wouldn't be an act of terror, but it would be an act of terror if the action was intended to shock and scare society.

I think it is all about the reasons behind the killing - but it is very difficult to define - for example, I wouldn't think a criminal killing another criminal is an act of terror, but as these things are often 'warnings' so it could be argued that they are acts of terror.

[Pakman]

Hi guys, i am a newbie on here, but im also a Muslim (not a newbie ) I've read this thread and i have to say you guys are great! you've discussed it without jumping in with the racist comments! its nice to see that, i had to delete 50 odd people off my Facebook because i saw ridiculous comments that where being made. I have to say, Muslims are against acts like this it is horrific, and as some have said on here i have to totally agree they should be hung! and i think the people who make absurd comments are those with IQ's less than 10! I saw a few comments about versus in the Q'uran
there are some violent versus yes indeed, but many other religions have violent versus also, does not mean we follow them. 'Islamic Extremists and Groups like the EDL' get the Limelight like inviting them onto the BBC the day after the attack, the BBC could not have got a faker Muslim (Anjem Choudray) if they tried! i have some friends who are very religious, who some people may think is to much E.g Sharia Law etc, but these guys dont have no chain of violence and they dont believe their should be sharia law in the UK. I was born in Essex, brought up in a Muslim family! and im proud of my heritage, proud of being a Muslim and proud of being a Brit!
I love a bit of history, and when i see people like the EDL throwing Nazi salutes if makes me sick! Sir Winston Churchill the greatest leader Britain ever had, fought so hard against Hitler, Nazism and all that represents it, and they have the audacity to call them self patriots?!
And the MDL when i see them, disgusting Scum defacing my religion!

and for the versus in the Q'uran, firstly we are raised on whats known as the 5 Pillars of Islam, the foundations. Belief, Pray, Fasting, Pilgrimage and Charity. no mention of violence.

And i hope you guys may have a read through this following page, just to give you a little insight on who versus in the Q'uran are misquoted and used to stir things up! :

http://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

[butternutsquashpie]

It's impressive that, despite your obvious emptions towards this issue, you managed to keep a decent decorum and good language through the entire rant. Genuinely impressed there mate,

[cj121]

Thank you Pakman for your post, and members, for a balanced discussion thus far around this horrific murder and sensitive subject. Pakman, additional thanks for the link which will get read for sure.

[Pakman]

And i just want to say, there was also a 75 year old Muslim gentleman who was butchered with a knife on his return from the mosque in another racist murder... these are both as disgusting as each other and my thoughts and prays go out to both families!

[Stevieboy]

It's impressive that, despite your obvious emotions towards this issue, you managed to keep a decent decorum and good language through the entire rant. Genuinely impressed there mate,

+1

[Puff Scotty]

To start with Pakman..I'd like to apologise for your post being called a "rant" far from it ..very calmly put.
I have to disagree with some of your points, whilst I agree the EDF are mindless thugs & misguided by extremists they are not causing terror on the streets in Muslim countries..
Can you imagine what would have happened if this incident was reversed & happened in Lagos, Karachi, Abidjan, Tehran...??
It's all very well saying Islam is not to blame & that it's not written in the Q'uran, but some Muslims claim it is...it doesn't help..
As for your friends who follow Sharia Law, some of their practices are illegal in this country ..we have our own laws & I expect everybody living here to abide by them, as I would if living in another country..
I've patrolled streets where sectarian violence was the norm..until you've been there you cannot understand how bloody stupid all sides are..
I don't want that on my doorstep from any faction..

[Pakman]

Of course not i totally understand where you are coming from. I take it you speak from a Military serving/former point of view? No of course, I know if it was flipped it would turn very nasty, I've done a lot of volunteer work abroad, working with Medicine Le Frontis, Unicef etc so I have seen it from a different prospective. I would like you to know, there is a versus in the Q'uran that states. Muslims who live in a land wherever it be Muslim or Non-Muslim should abide by the law of those lands before the laws of Sharia. This versus is never stated by any side! and when i say they follow Sharia law, my apology let me be a little clearer, they follow it, but first abide by UK law, one of them is a Lawyer for an established firm so he has that experience/view from both sides.

And your right some Muslims say it is written in the Q'uran. There are violent versus and statistically there are less then the bible and i mean that in no offence.

The Men who are extreme from all sides get the limelight, not the normal peaceful everyday people like yourself and myself. This is a major factor in this issue, there needs to be a collective of all sides to work together to stop these disgusting things (cause their not human).
I would rather stand at your doorstep myself and die then let an extremist 'Muslim' stand at your door step. Many of my friends are non-Muslim just so you dont think im bias.

Our media makes these situations so much worse it is shocking and im afraid to say i stand by that to the fullest. In Pakistan i saw exactly how this recruitment happens, poor young men who have nothing bribed with food, clothing etc etc and then brain washed. Men use greed and tricks to form radical men. All religion was established to abolish greed and trickery so these men are not religious.
Our troops should of never been in Afghanistan or Iraq! and that is the governments fault. These men are serving our country and orders and should not be targeted.
And also the EDL they dont cause terror, but they incite hatred any they have been to many European countries and done the same against different religions/ethnicity's and gay/lesbians. It is wrong.
In my Mosque during Friday prayers we prayed for the family of that poor solider, But i do understand your views totally and respect them. Their was the link i posted i hope you can have a read and also ill post a little video, just to help people understand. where all different were ever it be religion, color of whatever. Maybe we could get the UK to come together over cigars?

Im sorry for 'ranting' on haha!

And a little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab6fdoCkZTA Just as such people you will see will say the prophet was a pedo etc and a warmonger. actually he wasnt and married a woman older than him!

And this one is by a man you may know previously as Cat Stevens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHGJId4wVyY

And just a little humor a joke I saw on twitter: Blaming Islam for terrorism is like blaming Hitler's Mustache for the Holocaust (not my joke, so no offence meant!)

[Pakman]

I really recommend everybody to watch this video, As you may know him previously as Cat Stevens, this man is an inspiration not just Islamicly but generally and he addresses some of these issues we are now currently facing.

this one is by a man you may know previously as Cat Stevens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHGJId4wVyY

[butternutsquashpie]

To start with Pakman..I'd like to apologise for your post being called a "rant" far from it ..very calmly put.

Didn't mean to call it that. I first wrote "speech" but erased it as I thought it would be better put as: "rant."
No mean for insult there! I was just focusing on the definition .

My German mates always told me I would never fit into a European culture as my word choices would carry too much implied meaning that I can't seee. Then can sometimes be deemed as insults. Sorry about that!

Sent from my BlackBerry 9100 using Tapatalk

[Puff Scotty]

Hi Pakman, I looked at your links as you suggested but to me they just contain more rhetoric.
The lady speaker seemed fairly rational until she called herself an agnostic Jew, from there it just turned into another book lecture from an individuals perspective..if you want to see good in some thing you will..the same applies to bad, well intention-ed though!
Although I come from a religious family, I myself have no religion, I've seen too much crap in this world to believe in any divinity..
I no longer have a belief in heaven or hell & take no side in peoples beliefs..my doctrine is try to be nice to everyone of every race..
You don't need any old book to do that & you only need your own beliefs for guidance..
Religion obviously has been around for a long time & countless atrocities committed in it's name..& a wee bit of good..
I believe it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions in this day & age & not rely on some ancient manuscripts to guide us...Just my opinion, I mean no offence to anyone of any religion but it's about time religion took a back seat & allowed truth to flourish...

[Pakman]

I do agree with you, we should all indivdually be nice and treat everybody equally regardless of what there religion, ethnicity etc is. I have others as well and there are many debates on youtube, but i will not bombard you with more, i think we both see eye to eye here to be honest!


push aside our beliefs and as men, lets sit down with a cigar shall we?

[Mr Moore]

Islam is worrying to me and countless others and that's not because I think Muslims are anti democratic, anti liberal etc. Its becaus I worry about how certain branches of the muslim world interpret the Koran. Like Wahhabism. I think people worry in the West that it contradicts Western values and if it is able to flourish in the West, could there be a direct conflict of ideals between a liberal western society living side by side with sharia. I may have my facts wrong on specifically what in essence is Wahabism but from what I have read it seems very controlling. If the bbc and other media establishments did hold more debates where muslims and the large population of people who hold my type of sentiments can discuss our fear, perspectives and moving forward into the future together, then the vacuum that's being created will constantly be filled by more extremists and more nationalists. The EDL in working class areas are picking up more and more numbers and I dont think thats going to change unless all communities come together and discuss who and what we are as a whole society. My badminton partner is muslim and im not saying this as a defence mechanism to the fact that alot of you guys will probably not agree with my post. I dont care for proving my intentions. I say it because we have some good chats about how we see things from the 2 perspectives. He does not understand how we can have an immigration policy that allows for a diverse society and have a shockingly dire foreign policy in the middle east and he thinks that plays a large part towards the problems we are now seeing in the West. And I agree completely. I actually shudder when I see William Hague on the box.

[Mr Moore]

You know what I will actually hold my hands up and admit to the fact that ive never broached the islam subject with him in relation to my fears on say, in the future sharia law being implemented in certain areas of Britain. Its been more about politics on the whole, as we have a bit of interest in world news as well as badminton. Maybe I should as I know he would be bang on. He probably thinks the same in respect of not hoing there and in a way maybe that's part of the problem. I suppose another side to my standpoint is I only have 1 muslim mate. My standpoint comes from not an inner uderstanding of the Koran but from what I have read and seen. That said theres millions like me in the uk so wether im right to fear islam or not until there is more debates from all sides then I cant see anything changing. Why not get EDL and choudry or the guys who were making the muslim patrol videos on the table together with muslims and non muslims and have a proper debate. It needs to happen wether you agree with there ideologies or not. By leaving both parties out just confounds the fears and hatred. I bet muslim patrol and EDL would jump at the chance to debate and what harm could it do as their already at logger heads.