Returns. Further to the box codes thread.

[tippexx]

While I don't fully subscribe to Monk and Butter's comments about certain factory codes being universally better than others, they are quite right in saying that Habanos can knock-out some real horrors. Touch-wood, so far I've been lucky, I've had bad cigars in a box, but never a box so bad that I felt it necessary to send it back to vendor.

Which got me thinking about the mechanics of Returns. If I returned a box to Mitch, I'm pretty confident I'd receive a Credit or direct exchange. But what happens to the Returned box. In a perfect World I'd like to think that C.Gars return it to H&F and are reimbursed or credited, and then in turn H&F return it to Habanos who credit H&F and then — I don't know — unroll and re-cycle, use as pig food, bulldoze into the landscape as compost?

But there is a complication. Mitch will have PAID and CHARGED Tax and VAT. My Tax CHARGED I would get back from Mitch. Somehow Mitch has to get the Tax PAID back from HM Government. Many (many) moons ago I had a Saturday job with Tesco. If we dropped anything in the drinks area of the storeroom, we were told, to obviously first clear up the glass, but retain the sealed necks as these served as proof to HM Revenue of genuine brakeage and Tesco would receive back the Tax back. With cigars there are no seals other than those which have been broken pre-sale at vendor inspection or would have needed to be broken before anyone could say the box was duff anyway. So what happens, do HM Revenue just take Mitch's word for it?

[PeeJay]

Or do they just get sold as singles to unsuspecting punters in the shops? shocked.jpeg

[tippexx]

I would like to think NOT PJ. a) It risks a second return. b) Would a decent vendor really want a box of iffy cigars on display in his shop?

[cj121]

I'm sure, as with most retail arrangements, that there is an established system in place that ensures everyone is covered. Perhaps contact one of the retailers you use and get a verbatim account Arf?

[tippexx]

They would probably prefer I didn't, because the next question would be 'How do duff boxes get past vendor inspection in the first place'?

[monkey66]

I have spoken two two retailers about this over the years. From their point of view they simply return any returned sticks to H and F and get refunded what they paid.

If you ask next time you are in a B and M they will probably have a big bag/box of returns ready to go. What H and F do from there I have no idea. If I had to guess it could possibly involve components like tax 'wasting assets', damaged goods, refunds from H and F, tax loss mechanisms etc. This is assuming the number of returns is of a significant percentage that justify anything except throwing them in the bin.

VAT is VAT, each individual business in the chain would just adjust positive and negative with the flow of inventory. Import duty is a tax payable on import, not sure if you can get it refunded if you then export (there will be time limitations etc). I would again speculate that if I had a big import business I would probably want to keep goods in a 'bonded' environment (a pre-stage before technically imported for a tax point of view) to inspect. This way if they are returned I have not paid duty on them.

In regards to HMRC taking a businesses 'word for it' I think you know this Arf (if memory serves you used to run a business?). Like any business you prepare you annual accounts, assess your liability and pay taxes. You may or may not get audited by HMRC. You may or may not be required to have 'audited accounts'. You may or may not be honest. And you may or may not get in trouble if you are not. Exactly the same for personal tax returns.

One of the few advantages of the exorbitant amounts we pay for cigars in the UK is that there is a very healthy, no quibble returns mechanism. Not much consolation though.

[monkey66]

While I don't fully subscribe to Monk and Butter's comments about certain factory codes being universally better than others...?

Pretty sure I did not say any factory codes were 'universally better', just expressed my personal thinking. If you want to discuss it further, please do so on the original thread.

[TonyN]

I have spoken two two retailers about this over the years. From their point of view they simply return any returned sticks to H and F and get refunded what they paid

Would of thought H and F would do the same thing with cuba and the rollers get docked some of their wages.

[monkey66]

Would of thought H and F would do the same thing with cuba and the rollers get docked some of their wages.

I don't know but would doubt it for many reasons. The economics of shipping a few dodgy cigars half way round the world may not work out, individual rollers could not be identified, nor could factories unless it was whole boxes.

Probably good to understand this is Cuba not Sony

[TonyN]

Fair point but would of thought whole boxes can.