Questiontime!

[Smallclub]

.... how come a grey market exists and where does the stock come from?

This is no longer a secret. I'm sure you have heard of one of the ways these cigars are sourced.

[tippexx]

e.g. second release poor quality with different blends..

Now there's a sixtyfour thousand dollar question.

And for the million. If there is Worldwide network of 'trusted' distributors for Habanos SA .... how come a grey market exists and where does the stock come from?

[Smallclub]

Some very good machine made cigars:

RA Mille Fleur; Gispert Habanera N?2; Upmann Aromaticos; La Corona cigars (the entire line was MM); Punch Palmas Reales?

I still have a few La Corona panatelas from 1992; the intensity and depth of flavours is surprising. Shows that age does wonders, even on cheap tobacco?

[Smallclub]

I'm not saying they aren't puros Frank.

No no it's not what I meant. I just wanted to make this precise point clear.
I remember a video where one can see a big machine producing MM cigars in Cuba but can't find the link, grrr…

[Drewmidorn]

Good work crusse.

Personally I don't smoke many short filler (although i always have a bundle of JLP for my cigarette smoking friends who "fancy a cigar" which will undoubtedly go out in the ashtray after an inch) and I don't smoke any minis so it's never really concerned me... But it looks like we're getting to the bottom of it.

[Puff Scotty]

I'm getting there...I think. ICT now produce machine made short filler cigars in Cuba since 200? ..Is not ICT a company that is heavily associated with CITA who used to produce the exact same thing in the Canaries using cuban tobacco..obviously, that went tit's up when Cuba could no longer supply the quantity of tobacco needed for the Spanish production, or their own for that matter.
I think the cigar industry still has many secrets it'll take us earthlings years to find out about....
e.g. second release poor quality with different blends..

[crusse]

Cheers Arf,

Quote from that website "By 2006, no machine made cigars remained in the Habanos SA range."

Montecristo puritos are machine made & still have the Habanos SA sticker on...

Even more confused

According to that website, since 2005-6, puritos, minis and other machine made cigars have been produced by a Spanish company called Internacional Cubana de Tabacos S.A. (ICT) under license to Habanos S.A. So I assume that ICT is subcontracted by HSA to produce machine made cigars and HSA can therefore stick their stickers on them, but strictly speaking these cigars are no longer part of the HSA range.

So there are basically three kinds of Cuban cigar:

1. Hand made long filler - the premium cigars produced by HSA (e.g. Cohiba, Partagas)
2. Hand made short filler - the budget cigars produced by HSA (e.g. Quintero, Jose L Piedra)
3. Machine made short filler - the cheapies produced by ICT under license to HSA. These aren't strictly part of the HSA portfolio (e.g. Guantanamera, minis)

This means that HSA can have it both ways: They can legitimately claim that they only produce hand made premium cigars while also having their name associated with machine made cigars - and they make a profit from both!

[tippexx]

Yes but this document describes the automated process (machine made cigars) for cheap, dry cigars (called "cigares secs" in France and Belgium);

Cuba never used "homogenized tobacco leaf as a binder", and never used "dry wrappers". All cubans are puros.

I'm not saying they aren't puros Frank. And I'm not saying there aren't different types of machines for making cigars, but I would imagine the principles involved would be pretty much the same.

As I understand it, machines have been used for making Cuban cigars since the 1950's. I don't know where the machines were made or purchased but they are/were capable of both long and short filler construction.

[Puff Scotty]

Cheers Arf,

Quote from that website "By 2006, no machine made cigars remained in the Habanos SA range."

Montecristo puritos are machine made & still have the Habanos SA sticker on...

Even more confused

[tippexx]

Thanks Crusse,
Now you've sparked another question..what exactly does "hand finished' mean ?
No mucky answers from you lot either!

In the Cigar Production section here:-

http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/info-production.htm

[Smallclub]

It will be something like this Dave.

http://www.bat.com/group/sites/uk__3mnfen.nsf/vwPagesWebLive/DO6S8ETS?opendocument&SKN=1

Yes but this document describes the automated process (machine made cigars) for cheap, dry cigars (called "cigares secs" in France and Belgium);

Cuba never used "homogenized tobacco leaf as a binder", and never used "dry wrappers". All cubans are puros.

[tippexx]

Good point, so I'll ask my question another way.
What are the demarcation lines between short filler & machine made in reality? Hand finished raises another catalogue of questions in my mind - is it just the wrapper or wrapper/binder process that this means?
We are all aware that huge investments have been made in the Cuban cigar market & great strides have been made in production regulation..but the manufacturers like anyone else will not waste fine scraps & off-cuts if they can turn that into profit via a machine...

It will be something like this Dave.

http://www.bat.com/group/sites/uk__3mnfen.nsf/vwPagesWebLive/DO6S8ETS?opendocument&SKN=1

I'm not on my own computer at the mo. Will try to find more info this evening.

[Puff Scotty]

 I think wilderbeast is referring to the reputation of quinteros amongst hardcore cigarists not necessarily their popularity

Exactly!

It sounds like Habanos want to be able to say that all of there cigars are hand made premium products but don't want to distance themselves too much from the machine made cigars that bring in so much revenue on the basis that they are Cuban cigars, made by, but not under the brand of Habanos.

Good point, so I'll ask my question another way.
What are the demarcation lines between short filler & machine made in reality? Hand finished raises another catalogue of questions in my mind - is it just the wrapper or wrapper/binder process that this means?
We are all aware that huge investments have been made in the Cuban cigar market & great strides have been made in production regulation..but the manufacturers like anyone else will not waste fine scraps & off-cuts if they can turn that into profit via a machine...

[w1lldabeast]

 I think wilderbeast is referring to the reputation of quinteros amongst hardcore cigarists not necessarily their popularity

Exactly!

It sounds like Habanos want to be able to say that all of there cigars are hand made premium products but don't want to distance themselves too much from the machine made cigars that bring in so much revenue on the basis that they are Cuban cigars, made by, but not under the brand of Habanos.

[Drewmidorn]

Quintero, a bad rap? It's one the best selling marcas, Quinteros sell more than Bolivar, Punch or Ramon Allones!
In 2009 Quintero came in 7th position in the ranking of sales by brand, when Upmann came 8th…

I think wilderbeast is referring to the reputation of quinteros amongst hardcore cigarists not necessarily their popularity. I suppose you might be able to argue that mc Donald's is the best burger in the world.... They're certainly shifting the units. However quinteros are certainly not the mc Donald's of the cigar world. That honour probably goes to someone like Hamlet.

I think of the more budget conscious of the Cuban sticks (Jose l piedra, guantanmera etc) quinteros are quite well respected.