Mould or bloom?

[macker89]

I've got my exercise book and my text book covered with wallpaper at the ready .

Seriously though, very interesting stuff. Thanks Dave, look forward to the results

[daverave999]

Update: still no mould.

[peanutpete]

Update: still no mould.

what no mould what sort experiment is that, detention for you young man

[SeanP]

Update: still no mould.

Not trying to be funny or smart or anything but are you looking to grow a specific mold (mould) on the cigars (such as a tobacco mold) or will any type do? If you are up for any kind of mold try putting a piece of bread in the bag with the cigar and wet paper.

Or I can put a cigar in my bag of bread here since it always seems to go moldy in 2 days

[daverave999]

Sean, I'm hoping to get the white mould that people often confuse with bloom. I'm under the impression that this is commonly caused by overhumidification (correct me if I'm wrong!) hence the way I'm going about it.

I suspect that different types of mould will behave differently under UV which is why I'm attempting to encourage the cigar to mould 'naturally' rather than inducing it using 'seed mould'. I'm hoping to prove that the white mould either doesn't fluoresce, or does so in green or something different to the blue I've already seen. Whatever results I get, I'll have learnt something from it.

[SeanP]

Figured you were going for that. I would suggest cranking the heat (+75F/24C) and hope you have some spores present. Maybe put it right above a radiator for a day or two and see if that works

I would also be interested to see if prolonged exposure to the UV light could also be utilized as a treatment for mold growth on cigars. I know UVC (100 nm?280 nm) banks are used in commercial air handlers to prevent mold growth but I'm not sure if they are species limited. If you have a UVC source handy it would be a nice addition.


Plus I would be up to split the millions we could make selling UV systems to collectors Just imagine "Watch the plume sparkle while the mold is held at bay"

[daverave999]

I've put the bag on top of my monitor. If you don't see me for a few days, you know it's leaked.

If UVC kills mould, I'm not sure I want that shining on my cigars for too long! I suspect it would damage it in some way, like it does to skin. That said, maybe there are other methods of prophylaxis. Would anyone buy irradiated cigars? I'll have a look what wavelength the UV sources in work are too.

You've got me thinking now though. I may start inventing stuff.

[EDIT] Another thought-using UV as a mould preventative would only protect the outside.

[jkim05]

Sean, I'm hoping to get the white mould that people often confuse with bloom. I'm under the impression that this is commonly caused by overhumidification (correct me if I'm wrong!) hence the way I'm going about it.

I suspect that different types of mould will behave differently under UV which is why I'm attempting to encourage the cigar to mould 'naturally' rather than inducing it using 'seed mould'. I'm hoping to prove that the white mould either doesn't fluoresce, or does so in green or something different to the blue I've already seen. Whatever results I get, I'll have learnt something from it.

One problem I'm immediately seeing is that mold spores are killed very easily by UV light. Maybe you've killed all the mold so now it won't grow? Also, the mold that grows on tobacco would most likely be the same types of penicillium/aspergillus that grows on other moist substrates.

Mold is caused by overhumidification, but it can take time for it to develop as well. I would say just leave it alone in a cool, dark place with humidification and you should have no problem growing mold.

As for the UV damaging your cigars in some way, you probably have nothing to worry about, I don't think your light is strong enough to really kill much mold or bacteria, but who knows. Is the top of your monitor warm? Mold grows better at temps between 40F and 70F and RH higher than 70%, so if you can get those conditions you should be golden.

[daverave999]

The cigar I'm trying to spawn the mould on hasn't been exposed to UV deliberately by me, so that hopefully won't be an issue. Also, UV light shouldn't penetrate into the depths of the cigar, so only surface spores could be killed. I'm assuming they may also be present inside.

I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling. My monitor is a CRT, so warm on top. Are you suggesting that it could be too warm for mould to grow well?

The reference to damaging the cigar was more for SeanP's suggestion we go into business selling UV 'cloaks' to prevent cigar mould.

I've also picked up another little UV keyring that emits at a longer wavelength (around 395 nm I think, but not specified this time), just to see if the mould will give any different results. This one won't work on UK banknotes whereas the first one does. It doesn't appear to show up the bloom anywhere near as well either.

[EDIT] Forgot to look at the UV lights in work though...

[nicwing]

This is a great thread, I am only just catching up after a couple of days away, now I am an avid fan.

I would like to make one suggestion however. I have always admired Dave for having one of the most time served avatars on the forum, however, hesitatingly I would like to suggest a change:

[daverave999]

Noooooooooooooooooo! Don't take my pinktopus!

[jkim05]

The cigar I'm trying to spawn the mould on hasn't been exposed to UV deliberately by me, so that hopefully won't be an issue. Also, UV light shouldn't penetrate into the depths of the cigar, so only surface spores could be killed. I'm assuming they may also be present inside.

I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling. My monitor is a CRT, so warm on top. Are you suggesting that it could be too warm for mould to grow well?

The reference to damaging the cigar was more for SeanP's suggestion we go into business selling UV 'cloaks' to prevent cigar mould.

I've also picked up another little UV keyring that emits at a longer wavelength (around 395 nm I think, but not specified this time), just to see if the mould will give any different results. This one won't work on UK banknotes whereas the first one does. It doesn't appear to show up the bloom anywhere near as well either.

[EDIT] Forgot to look at the UV lights in work though...

Well, in general most of the spores are going to exist naturally in the air. The cigar is just the substrate or medium upon which the spores are able to grow. I would say your monitor is probably too warm and is preventing the mold from growing. The keys to growing mold are a cool, dark place, excess humidity and a suitable substrate, so you've got 2 of 3, now you just need to move it to a cool dark location.

[daverave999]

That hadn't occurred to me. This may be a problem as the FdC are cellophane-wrapped and I took it off then just put it in the bag. I did tell you I didn't know much about fungus.

Second time around then! I'll take the cigar out of the cello, test it with the UV light to see if there is anything visible already, then leave it in varying locations around the house for a day or so, then put it in the bag with the other one as that's already past smoking ever again.

Thanks very much for the input on this experiment folks. Incidentally there is still no mould on the original test cigar... I find it hilarious that I am struggling to get it to happen.

[jkim05]

That hadn't occurred to me. This may be a problem as the FdC are cellophane-wrapped and I took it off then just put it in the bag. I did tell you I didn't know much about fungus.

Second time around then! I'll take the cigar out of the cello, test it with the UV light to see if there is anything visible already, then leave it in varying locations around the house for a day or so, then put it in the bag with the other one as that's already past smoking ever again.

Thanks very much for the input on this experiment folks. Incidentally there is still no mould on the original test cigar... I find it hilarious that I am struggling to get it to happen.

Actually, I had a fiver of cello wrapped FdC's that had no mold and I took them out of the cello and, voila, in a couple days i saw mold. Not much of a problem, just wiped them down and they were fine.

[SeanP]

I like the Grissom suggestion

I'd also considered that Sclerotinia may be the white mould in addition to Penicillium, but I don't know much about fungus at all so this is all from googling.

Also take a look at Paecilomyces. It a white to yellow mold that is commonly found on grapes and canned fruit (a good source if you are looking for a donor). But then again you have over 100,000 species of mold with another million or so yet to be identified...kind of daunting!

I'm not a mycologist but have some experience with indoor molds, their causes, dispersal, remediation, etc. If you keep the temps below 85 you should see good growth. Above that and some molds won't grow too well. Below 65F/18C and down to about 40F/5C they will grow but the rate is much slower and I'm sure you don't want to wait 3 years.

Take your grannies damp cellar that doesn't get visited but twice a year (That wasn't a euphemism ). Damp, musty, cold, and some old books have mold spots on them. If you take that same cellar and increase only the temperature and keep the humidity and air flow the same the colonized mold growth rate will increase 10 fold and new colonies will also start to flourish. Think scene out of Aliens...

As for the UV light killing the present molds spores...The light you used is not the correct wavelength to do so so you should be fine there.

The shorter wavelength light would kill them but you would run the risk of bleaching the wrapper during long exposures. But it would be interesting to see how long it would take to get the wrapper to bleach compared to how long the mold could survive under the UV light. If there is no cross over (i.e mold spores die at 2 mins and wrapper bleaches at 30 hours) then you have a marketable product on your hands .