Osmosis

[PeeJay]

I was driving to work listening to Black Sabbath when my thoughts turned to osmosis. I know we have talked about how different cigars when stored together can take on each other's flavours but can the strength leach from one to another as well if you store your triple ligeros next to your mild and bland?

[butternutsquashpie]

-Osmosis is the movement of water (and only water) over a porous membrane.
-Diffusion is the movement of anything from a high concentration to a low concentration.

I think you're talking about Diffusion...
On diffusion, most 'cigar gurus' I know (and many very respectable creatures, them) all laugh at the idea of flavour marrying. I do as well from a chemical standpoint.
Strengths of flavours come from the oil/high chained/polymers of fatty molecules within the leaves. These don't move and don't break down as long as the sticks are in a humid condition. This is what I have seen from my experience.
On top of that, flavoured 'flavours' like vanillin, cinnamon, etc are all tiny molecules that can cling to membranes like carpets, clothes, and cigars. Those are the ones that move. I don't see potential for those to be within cigars.

Flavour leaching (in my chemical opinion and heard experience) is an impossibility.

[PeeJay]

Thank you Jeremy, perhaps if I'd misspelled it ozmosis my little joke at the beginning would have got through too. Now I know the difference between osmosis and diffusion as well.

[cigarmo]

I dont think so, nicotine does not evaporate like the oils do, its the oils in the leaf that you can smell and would pass on to other cigars.
this is just my opinion based on no facts what so ever.
i am sure Marc will be along soon with some actual facts.

[butternutsquashpie]

I dont think so, nicotine does not evaporate like the oils do, its the oils in the leaf that you can smell and would pass on to other cigars.

Everything evaporates like everything. The term evaporation means turning from liquid to gas. HOWEVER the re-absorption into different surfaces is probably what you mean. Reabsorption of pure solvents in gas form onto surfaces is very low. This is because when they get take in, they get released all the same. However, pyrolytic tars (found when anything organic burns) exist within membranes much easier which keeps them bound on the surfaces of carpets, walls, etc. This is also what gives the cigars a terrible taste after you put it out and come back after 1-100 hours.

Nicotine is a liquid at room temperature and evaporates near 200 deg Centigrade. By my understanding, it is chemically similar to xanthines (two most common being caffeine (coffee drug) and theobromine(chocolate drug)) so they cannot exactly be taken in by porous membranes unless smoked (this is why caffeine and theobromine does not show up in anything besides coffee or chocolate).


Looking up my old article that's bookmarked, "THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF TOBACCO AND TOBACCO SMOKE" by R.L. Stedman. dated 1967, the only things that has the physical properties of pyrolitic tars would be:
-Isoprenoid Hydrocarbons - Giant fatty molecules. Should break down over time (crack)
-Nitriles, Cyclic Ethers, Phenolic Ethers, Halogenated Ethers - Nitrogenated or Oxygen bound molecules stick really close to surfaces. These would (i hypothesise) be the main constituents of tobacco tastes/smells. I can see these resting still on sufaces (like cigars) and only be given off in the air. Like most ethers in my lab, they don't really stick to anything but are initially bound. I would say with a decent amount of certainty that these molecules would not adhere to many surfaces.
However, surfaces and organic materials are complex. It's hard to say if anything would happen because anything could happen.
-Polyphenols - annoying molecules that have a high bonding potential. Especially if they're really fat and heavy. Breaks down over time as well (cracks)

Brown Pigments - This is my 5th time revising this article and every time, I find something interesting.
This time, I found the term 'Brown Pigment' which is a severe corruption of the German word: Tabaksaeure (acid of tobacco). This is odd because many inorganic and water soluble molecules fall under this bracket. This seems to be main consistent of the colours that the Non-Cuban factories paint their cigars with. Will dig up on this more before commenting.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Nicotine is a hygroscopic oil, it shows in regular use that it readily diffuses... Hence transepidermal Nicotine patches. That just shows how effective Nicotine is at getting itself through tiny tiny spaces. It can get through your skin! Can it get into another cigar in contact with it..... What do you think?

[butternutsquashpie]

Nicotine is a hygroscopic oil, it shows in regular use that it readily diffuses... Hence transepidermal Nicotine patches. That just shows how effective Nicotine is at getting itself through tiny tiny spaces. It can get through your skin! Can it get into another cigar in contact with it..... What do you think?

Lysergic acid and its derivatives can get into your bloodstream by way of your skin (fun fact: this is how Albert Hoffman discovered LSD. He touched it and got a 3-5 day Acid Trip)
Methylated mercury compounds can get into your bloodstream by way of your skin (our labs do NOT work with this after a woman in America died from touching this and increased her bloody mercury levels to dangerous amounts)
Tobacco farmers are at high risk of nicotine poisoning due to touching tobacco plants all day.

It is not the unique molecule itself... It is simply the ends of the molecules that gives it the diffusive properties.


Original topic calls for what the cigar tastes like. It is my belief that nicotine content does not affect a cigar's taste much... just the kick. On top of that, unless I start storing Double Ligeros with my old Clear Havanas from 1950 and older, I doubt a diffusion of nicotine would matter.

[Wigan]

Hooly crap that's a lot of science from you lot.

[butternutsquashpie]

Thank you Jeremy, perhaps if I'd misspelled it ozmosis my little joke at the beginning would have got through too. Now I know the difference between osmosis and diffusion as well.

Oh. My word.
Couldn't you have at least mentioned his side project so we wouldn't have to make 3-6 connexions before getting the joke!?

[cigarmo]

Nicotine is a hygroscopic oil, it shows in regular use that it readily diffuses... Hence transepidermal Nicotine patches. That just shows how effective Nicotine is at getting itself through tiny tiny spaces. It can get through your skin! Can it get into another cigar in contact with it..... What do you think?

..........leaves to duck tape a triple ligero to his arm

[butternutsquashpie]

..........leaves to duck tape a triple ligero to his arm

hehehehe. unintended puns.......

[cj121]

An absorbing thread and read

[ValeTudoGuy]

My understanding is that Nitrogen has a lot to do with strength. This is why cigars when aged can get stronger in peaks and then Will slowly mallow. Tobacco is a plant and so should be around 50% starch. Over time the starch Will turn to sugar and mellow out the smoke. But in the early days, the leaf Will go through a Nitrogen cycle and still be mostly starch which Will make it strong.

I suppose my answer to the original question is if you put one usually weak cigar into a box of strength monsters, my theory suggests that at some point it Will be much more Nitrogen rich than it otherwise would have been.

So yeah, my money is On it being possible or at least feasible given the right environment.

Let's do a test and age an ERdM in a box of Boli's for a year and test it against one of it's original box mates.

[ValeTudoGuy]

P.s. great thread PJ.

[butternutsquashpie]

My understanding is that Nitrogen has a lot to do with strength. This is why cigars when aged can get stronger in peaks and then Will slowly mallow

My hypothesis on strength is fatty esters and annoying heavy phenolic chains that produce terrible aromatic pyrolytic tars.
Nitrogen would have a few affects as there are a lot of amino acids which would give it good/bad tastes.
Most likely it's both

MTobacco is a plant and so should be around 50% starch. Over time the starch Will turn to sugar and mellow out the smoke. But in the early days, the leaf Will go through a Nitrogen cycle and still be mostly starch which Will make it strong

Starches and most plant fibres decomposes into sugars before being set on fire. The starch [chemically, logically] should be irrelevant due to the way it burns.

I suppose my answer to the original question is if you put one usually weak cigar into a box of strength monsters, my theory suggests that at some point it Will be much more Nitrogen rich than it otherwise would have been.

This may be true IF tertiary amines break down into secondary and primary amines. I think a more advanced version of the Kjaldahl (pronounced judol) method of amine determination may be able to help with that.

Let's do a test and age an ERdM in a box of Boli's for a year and test it against one of it's original box mates.

Nope. ERdM and Bolivars would have similar properties. I would rather put an H. Upmann into a box full of Liga Privadas.
Make it RADICALLY different.