Cigar Insurance?

[PeeJay]

I suspect iI will be freezing any that I buy direct from the Dominican Republic if I go there on holiday this year.

[butternutsquashpie]

How will above freezing temperature kill any organisms never mind all.

Er, there's a study shown that the eggs/larvae die after 2-5 weeks in temperatures below 20centigrade.

As a side note: I do 1 day in fridge, 3 in freeze, and 1 day in fridge. Reduce shock to them cigars

I suspect iI will be freezing any that I buy direct

That's good too! Remember that not only Habanos has bad quality control.
B&Ms are normally clear of Eggs though. Just check the box code and it is normally fine.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9100 using Tapatalk

[rascal]

Er, there's a study shown that the eggs/larvae die after 2-5 weeks in temperatures below 20centigrade.

I would like to see that as in normal circumstances yes but they can also hibernate of a such (known as overwintering) up to 250 days. which can be the larve stage or beetle

[ValeTudoGuy]

I would like to see that as in normal circumstances yes but they can also hibernate of a such (known as overwintering) up to 250 days. which can be the larve stage or beetle

While you would generally be right, Lasioderma serricorne is actually a special case.... Museums in Canada, Tobacco storage depots in Japan and many other organisations control them with above freezing temperatures due the the beetles basic inability to survive at under 6 ?C.

Specifically adults die within 6 days at 4 ?C and Eggs die within 5 days at 5 ?C

Lasioderma serricorne is biologically incapable of "overwintering" at these temperatures.

[rascal]

you mean about the japenese moving there tobacco storage warehouses to colder parts of the country to cut down on the amount of beetles

heres a table from there research

Table 1 shows the lethal exposure times at constant temperatures of 0, 5, 7.5 and 10?C for the acclimated larvae of L. serricorne. These results coincide with the mortality data in tobacco hogsheads: the larvae in
hogsheads were eradicated in 12, 20, and 32 wks at constant temperatures of 4.4, 7.2, and 8.9?C,
respectively (Childs et al., 1968). Almost three months were required to eradicate the acclimated larvae
at 5?C and half a year was required at 7.5?C. Because the latter condition is not achievable in natural
situations in temperate areas, the critical temperature ? duration for this pest to overwinter in temperate
areas should be around 5?C ? three months. An actual winter extinction under fluctuating natural
situations occurred in milder conditions than those expected from laboratory data at constant
temperatures; 9-10 wks below 7?C plus 1-2 wks below 6?C (Imai and Tsuchiya, 2007). . During that
experiment, test insects were exposed to the atmospheres of warehouses for five months. Under practical warehouse conditions, exposure to sublethal low temperatures before and after deep winter accelerates the lethal effect of low temperatures

Table 1 Lethal exposure time for acclimated larvaea
of Lasioderma serricorne at constant low temperatures.
Temperature, ?C LT50 (fiducial limits), day LT99 (fiducial limits), day
0 21 (19–25) 47 (43–55)
5 22 (18–25) 78 (60–117)
7.5 43 (32–53) 188 (113–150)
10 64 (50–77) 226 (180–358)

[ValeTudoGuy]

Again my point, if these creatures die at above freezing temperatures which common science suggests they do..... Why even risk your cigars in a freezer?

If professional organisations want to do this then fine, they can afford to lose some cigars if something bad happens. I on the other hand would hate to find that a freezer bag had popped open, or had a hole in it and I had freeze dried cigars that could be the financial equivalent of hours and hours of my hard work.

Edit: to each their own.

[rascal]

Again my point, if these creatures die at above freezing temperatures which common science suggests they do..... Why even risk your cigars in a freezer?

If professional organisations want to do this then fine, they can afford to lose some cigars if something bad happens. I on the other hand would hate to find that a freezer bag had popped open, or had a hole in it and I had freeze dried cigars that could be the financial equivalent of hours and hours of my hard work.

Edit: to each their own.

Yip each to there own my reasoning is that if you keep your cigars at 5 -7 degrees for 3 months to eradicate the threat you are going to cause more damage, or if you dont you could be looking at 6-9 months till you know you are beetle free but at that point you have added more stock that potentially can have beetles as well. So you are basically living with the risk is your opinion and thats perfectly fine as each to there own and the only reason I bringing up these things is so people can see the facts and make there own informed choices. As I said if you are buying cubans from good sources they have been frozen anyway thats why I never get about people worrying about ruining them as a bunch or rolled leaves are tougher than people think

[ValeTudoGuy]

Yip each to there own my reasoning is that if you keep your cigars at 5 -7 degrees for 3 months to eradicate the threat you are going to cause more damage, or if you dont you could be looking at 6-9 months till you know you are beetle free but at that point you have added more stock that potentially can have beetles as well. So you are basically living with the risk is your opinion and thats perfectly fine as each to there own and the only reason I bringing up these things is so people can see the facts and make there own informed choices. As I said if you are buying cubans from good sources they have been frozen anyway thats why I never get about people worrying about ruining them as a bunch or rolled leaves are tougher than people think

I agree that people should see the facts, but it isn't about the leaves being tougher than expected.
Freeze your cigars in a less than desirable manner and you WILL destroy them by separating the oils from the water, you will NEVER emulsify those oils again...... Fact!

Last time we had this discussion Jeremy suggested that by sealing the cigars you are effectively creating a favourable environment to make as damned sure as possible that this doesn't happen, I can accept that this very possibly is the case. I would be more inclined to trust this theory if I was using a vacuum bagging system to ensure there was very little air in the bag.

Perhaps one day I'm going to be wishing I did use the freezer technique..... I doubt it, but perhaps.

Anyway, time for a cigar.

Good talking with you rascal!

[rascal]

I agree that people should see the facts, but it isn't about the leaves being tougher than expected.
Freeze your cigars in a less than desirable manner and you WILL destroy them by separating the oils from the water, you will NEVER emulsify those oils again...... Fact!

Last time we had this discussion Jeremy suggested that by sealing the cigars you are effectively creating a favourable environment to make as damned sure as possible that this doesn't happen, I can accept that this very possibly is the case. I would be more inclined to trust this theory if I was using a vacuum bagging system to ensure there was very little air in the bag.

Perhaps one day I'm going to be wishing I did use the freezer technique..... I doubt it, but perhaps.

Anyway, time for a cigar.

Good talking with you rascal!

I am really starting to lose the plot with what you are meaning as I stated facts to show that cigar beetles do not die in 5 or 6 days at 5 degrees and it is more like up to 90 days and that means keeping your humidor in the fridge for 90 days(ok for museums that are never going to smoke them) . So I stated all this to you in the most friendly manner I could and you are making snide remarks about me misinforming people that cigars are tougher than people think. I said if you could show me facts that cigar beetles die themselves outside a freezer in 5 days like you choose to state and mis-inform people but hay how some people just choose to make wide sweeping comments without the knowledge and then counter with out wide sweeping comments without the knowledge but hay ho good talking to you too

[ValeTudoGuy]

Firstly, none of my comments were intended to be snide.... If you have read into it that way one of three things has happened: 1. I have mis represented my self. 2. My meaning has been lost due to the nature of conversing by text. 3. You have chosen to see a snide ness in my words.
I however assure you that I was not intending to be snide.

Second, the facts you stated are simply a copy and paste of a single experimental finding..... If you choose to validate them and re-distribute them as absolute fact then that's up to you.

Third, who is to say that should I choose to cool my cigars that I would do so to 6 or even 5 degrees.... Perhaps I would do so to one degree which even by the figures you have posted would decrease the required time to eradicate the pest to much below your suggested 90 days.

Fourth, I am not trying to tell people to do as I say. I am however encouraging people to consider what they are doing. I come to my conclusions by doing research for myself, I have never pretend on this forum that my scientific thinking has ever been anything more than that of an armature.

Finally, I don't believe that ANY of my statements are "wide sweeping" and I think it is quite rich to question the "knowledge" of a person you don't know... Based solely on a couple of posts on an Internet forum that oppose your personal opinion.

To be clear, there is no malice meant in any of these words and it was for the most good speaking with you.

[rascal]

Firstly, none of my comments were intended to be snide.... If you have read into it that way one of three things has happened: 1. I have mis represented my self. 2. My meaning has been lost due to the nature of conversing by text. 3. You have chosen to see a snide ness in my words.
I however assure you that I was not intending to be snide.

I agree that people should see the facts, but it isn't about the leaves being tougher than expected.

This statment must have been the way it was worded then

Second, the facts you stated are simply a copy and paste of a single experimental finding..... If you choose to validate them and re-distribute them as absolute fact then that's up to you.

Third, who is to say that should I choose to cool my cigars that I would do so to 6 or even 5 degrees.... Perhaps I would do so to one degree which even by the figures you have posted would decrease the required time to eradicate the pest to much below your suggested 90 days.

Yip I chose to copy and paste a section of a scientific study that refereed to your comment on Japanese company's storing cigars at 5 Celsius to kill beetles in 5 days to show that the study and practice you referred to was actually longer.

The table I pasted shows the impact of storing tobacco at figures lower than 5 and goes all the way down to 0 degrees so you can easily see the time difference it will make to you storing at a lower temperature.

Fourth, I am not trying to tell people to do as I say. I am however encouraging people to consider what they are doing. I come to my conclusions by doing research for myself, I have never pretend on this forum that my scientific thinking has ever been anything more than that of an armature.

Freeze your cigars in a less than desirable manner and you WILL destroy them by separating the oils from the water, you will NEVER emulsify those oils again...... Fact!

Specifically adults die within 6 days at 4 ?C and Eggs die within 5 days at 5 ?C

Lasioderma serricorne is biologically incapable of "overwintering" at these temperatures.


Finally, I don't believe that ANY of my statements are "wide sweeping" and I think it is quite rich to question the "knowledge" of a person you don't know... Based solely on a couple of posts on an Internet forum that oppose your personal opinion.

To be clear, there is no malice meant in any of these words and it was for the most good speaking with you.

I really dont know how else you are meant to base your opinion on someone knowledge other than the statements they make?, this is not anything personal or post aimed at your personality or your person I am only questioning the things you said nothing else that is why I have tried to answer some of your questions with the sections that fitted with the impression I got, but things are hard to put across in the written word.
I just would not want someone buying bundles of custom rolled cigars and sticking them in there humidor without thinking about freezing as there were put off by the fact that they read somewhere that it was posted that they could quite easily wreck there new pride and joy by not doing it properly. When it really is as simple as putting it in a bag removing as much air as possible then sticking in another bag for extra measure and bunging them in the freezer for 48 hrs (not forgetting to tell the wife they are not a bag of sausages)

[ValeTudoGuy]

Demulsification of crystalline structures is an accepted scientific fact with many papers published on the matter. There has been conjecture on this forum regarding the creation of an atmosphere where partial pressure is greater than the vapour pressure of any ice formed inside the cigar. This environment may remove the risk of flash dehydration, but I am yet to see proof of this (not that I am doubting Jeremy's knowledge.)


and


For total transparency the table you posted was a specific research into an acclimatised form of the larvae. If there are larvae in the batch of cigars then the sticks will likely be dust before you ever get a chance to buy them... let alone smoke them.


The eggs are what we should most likely be worried about (admittedly a sweeping statement.), the same report you quoted from states that all eggs are known to die within 6 weeks at temperatures as high as 18 degrees, as there is no suggestion of acclimatised eggs your suggestion of 90 days at 5 degrees and below is seemingly a vast over exaggeration.


It still stands that above freezing temperatures DO kill this organism, even during its most adapted state. And to my mind, with the evidence I have seen it does so over an acceptable timescale for the dangers that we are likely to face without the potential harsh treatment of freezing.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17686632

I think that we agree on one matter though, don't stick suspect cigars straight into your humi.


If I was at all worried and was intending to keep them for a long enough time to care I would probably tupperdor them, cool to under 5 degrees for a week and then store at under 18 for a couple months.

[Tomothebuilder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

[PeeJay]

Has anyone here actually suffered from cigar beetles?

[Cubist]

I had an attack of the worm many years ago (first time round). A friend had brought back some cheap "Cohibas" from Spain and I had half the box. Anyway a while after that I noticed a stick with wood worm holes in it, checked the others and found about 6 with holes. I just chucked all the Spanish sticks in the bin. All my other cigars were fine, never had another problem with the worm. In those days we didn't know much about cigars compared to now, and never rally worried about temp, just humidity, and it was in the summer that it happened. Looking back I'm pretty sure they were fake.

As for this freezing business, I'm not convinced its necessary. From what I understand the eggs will only remain viable for a number of weeks, and if conditions are such that they do not hatch in that time then they will just die. Keep your roots under about 18C and I cant see any eggs ever developing.

I'm also a bit sceptical about all Cuban cigars being frozen. I personally have not seen any real details of the freezing process or facilities. Has anybody here got any good solid info on it? I have heard some talk of tobacco/cigars being fumigated to kill the beetle, but even that info is a bit sketchy.