Cigar Insurance?

[PeeJay]

So die all fake Cohibas!

[rascal]

Has anyone here actually suffered from cigar beetles?

Nope but then again I freeze all mine

[rascal]

Demulsification of crystalline structures is an accepted scientific fact with many papers published on the matter. There has been conjecture on this forum regarding the creation of an atmosphere where partial pressure is greater than the vapour pressure of any ice formed inside the cigar. This environment may remove the risk of flash dehydration, but I am yet to see proof of this (not that I am doubting Jeremy's knowledge.)

Nobody is denying that Demulsification can happen and is a scientific fact what I am saying is in relation to cigars and freezing them there is no proof or ever has it even been heard of that improper freezing causes this.


and


For total transparency the table you posted was a specific research into an acclimatised form of the larvae. If there are larvae in the batch of cigars then the sticks will likely be dust before you ever get a chance to buy them... let alone smoke them.

depends where abouts in the distribution chain the eggs got into the cigars could have been from the warehouse your cigars were shipped to you from


The eggs are what we should most likely be worried about (admittedly a sweeping statement.), the same report you quoted from states that all eggs are known to die within 6 weeks at temperatures as high as 18 degrees, as there is no suggestion of acclimatised eggs your suggestion of 90 days at 5 degrees and below is seemingly a vast over exaggeration.


It still stands that above freezing temperatures DO kill this organism, even during its most adapted state. And to my mind, with the evidence I have seen it does so over an acceptable timescale for the dangers that we are likely to face without the potential harsh treatment of freezing.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17686632

I think that we agree on one matter though, don't stick suspect cigars straight into your humi.
One of the reasons I am careful who I trade with and never get anyone to pick me up cigars when abroad even places some people assume are fine. Take canada for example there is nearly more fakes there than Mexico

If I was at all worried and was intending to keep them for a long enough time to care I would probably tupperdor them, cool to under 5 degrees for a week and then store at under 18 for a couple months.

I hope you are also are aware that as you decrees the temperature that you store your cigars at you are also decreasing the amount of moisture in the air making it harder for you to keep them at the right humidity. your beads or boveda pack wont work proper so you could end up with dried out sticks. And yes most eggs will die in 6 weeks but when you are using multiple storage places and adding roughly 2 boxes in that time frame it takes a lot of effort to monitor and check your cigars. Never mind trades and other assortment of singles you pick up to try new things.

[rascal]

I had an attack of the worm many years ago (first time round). A friend had brought back some cheap "Cohibas" from Spain and I had half the box. Anyway a while after that I noticed a stick with wood worm holes in it, checked the others and found about 6 with holes. I just chucked all the Spanish sticks in the bin. All my other cigars were fine, never had another problem with the worm. In those days we didn't know much about cigars compared to now, and never rally worried about temp, just humidity, and it was in the summer that it happened. Looking back I'm pretty sure they were fake.

As for this freezing business, I'm not convinced its necessary. From what I understand the eggs will only remain viable for a number of weeks, and if conditions are such that they do not hatch in that time then they will just die. Keep your roots under about 18C and I cant see any eggs ever developing.

I'm also a bit sceptical about all Cuban cigars being frozen. I personally have not seen any real details of the freezing process or facilities. Has anybody here got any good solid info on it? I have heard some talk of tobacco/cigars being fumigated to kill the beetle, but even that info is a bit sketchy.

Never seen any pictures of there facilaties but have been told they freeze them for 5 days at below -20 and have been doing so since 2007. Your beetle could have been picked up from the actual shop as there is a certain Tabac in spain who's whole display wall to show what cigars they sell has beetle holes in every stick

[ValeTudoGuy]

I hope you are also are aware that as you decrees the temperature that you store your cigars at you are also decreasing the amount of moisture in the air making it harder for you to keep them at the right humidity. your beads or boveda pack wont work proper so you could end up with dried out sticks. And yes most eggs will die in 6 weeks but when you are using multiple storage places and adding roughly 2 boxes in that time frame it takes a lot of effort to monitor and check your cigars. Never mind trades and other assortment of singles you pick up to try new things.

Only two points, if you want proof that freezing will destroy a cigar then put a cheap cigar in the freezer without any form of protection and be prepared to receive a tasteless dry husk beyond any form of repair when you defrost it... Heck do it with a slice of bread it's cheaper.

also relative humidity actually increases when the temperature decreases due to the saturation point of cool air.

http://www.nc-climate.ncsu.edu/edu/k12/.humidity

[rascal]

Only two points, if you want proof that freezing will destroy a cigar then put a cheap cigar in the freezer without any form of protection and be prepared to receive a tasteless dry husk beyond any form of repair when you defrost it... Heck do it with a slice of bread it's cheaper.

also relative humidity actually increases when the temperature decreases due to the saturation point of cool air.

http://www.nc-climate.ncsu.edu/edu/k12/.humidity

That assumes that your absolute humidity stays the same so have to take in to account which is complete different to RH. Yeah sticking a cigar by itself in a freezer with no protection would more than likely ruin it, but so would sticking it up my arse. And since no one mentioned putting cigars in a freezer unprotected the point is the same as mine about sticking one up my arse.

[Simon Bolivar]

So here's the simplest method IMHO. First don't deliberately buy cheap sticks/fakes from non Habanos shops. Keep any swaps, gifts, NC's in a seperate humi & in a seperate room (the winged beasts fly) & smoke in short time. I never freeze my Cubans, never had a problem with Cubans for last 8yrs so I believe the freezing that they are now doing is working, as I did once have a problem previously. Next, maintian high standards of hygiene, clean & sweep out loose tobacco & go through your cigars on a regular basis so if early signs are found, action can be taken. Pictures of extreme beetle activity has proberly come from warehouses where they are stored long term & in too large quantities to personnaly examine. I have a large stock inc the Cave, 2 Humi's & a coolidor at an equivilent value of a decent 2nd hand Jag, whch I dreamed of buying for 20yrs & then talked myself out of & decided to invest the money in smokes instead, which at least have no ongoing costs unlike a car; so have a very keen interest in 'bio-security'.
Haven't got my stash insured as such but if anything happen would put a claim in using my spreadsheet which lists very cigar & value. Of course I don't expect to get anything but you never know, I certianly would pay extra to insure it as the risk is incredibly small & any extra cost would be prohibative. As an example my car insurance with 7yrs no claims at 54yo for a 10yro Skoda Fabia is ?450!

[ValeTudoGuy]

That assumes that your absolute humidity stays the same so have to take in to account which is complete different to RH. Yeah sticking a cigar by itself in a freezer with no protection would more than likely ruin it, but so would sticking it up my arse. And since no one mentioned putting cigars in a freezer unprotected the point is the same as mine about sticking one up my arse.

If you are sealing a cigar into a bag or tupperdor, why on earth would the absolute humidity change by more than a modicum over the periods we are talking about?????

Unless your arse has the ability to change the moisture within the cigars on a molecular level then your comment has no basis in reasonable adult conversation.

My whole point is the question of wether a freezer bag is sufficient protection to stop the demulsification from taking place and I happen to be of the opinion that it most likely isn't.... However you appear to have missed my point.

Rather than allow this conversation to continue it's degradation into quips about body parts, I'm going to go and spend my time doing something wholly more important and smoke a cigar.

I'm glad that you enjoy your cigars in what ever fashion you wish and am thankful that at least we can share our love of cigars on this forum, if not or agreement on their best treatment.

All the best.



Marc

[Cubist]

All this talk of the worm is giving me the willies. I'll have to freeze and fumigate myself by having a smoke outside

[rascal]

If you are sealing a cigar into a bag or tupperdor, why on earth would the absolute humidity change by more than a modicum over the periods we are talking about?????
Well see this is way it all falls down and it gets complicated RH is a figure given in the percentage of the amount water in the air. Now the amount of water the air can hold differs with the temperature. So if your RH is at 50% at 2 degrees and 50% at 18 degrees they have a completely different amount of water in the air (hence why most people say the Rh rises as temperatures decreases) as the colder the air the less water it can hold. Well absolute humidity should not change with your temperature really but by chilling the cigars you are effecting the pressure which will have a effect.(assuming you are putting them in the fridge). But if you are using humidification they will admit water slower so this will have a effect on your RH as well. There is a lot more factors than you are taking into a account.

Unless your arse has the ability to change the moisture within the cigars on a molecular level then your comment has no basis in reasonable adult conversation.

Same as your comment about throwing a unprotected stick in the freezer has no part in the conversation, as was unrelated to the topic. Also since people arse are normally not like desserts I am sure it would affect the moisture. LOL molecular level, really lol. farting near a cigar will affect the molecular level of a cigar as you are changing the gasses in the atmosphere which inturn would affect the density of the air which would affect the pressure which would actually change your RH and we are not even getting into the temperature difference you would create also changing the "molecluar" level of the cigar.

My whole point is the question of wether a freezer bag is sufficient protection to stop the demulsification from taking place and I happen to be of the opinion that it most likely isn't.... However you appear to have missed my point.

No I have not missed your point I have only questioned the facts you based your opinion on and you have felt the need to defend them
Rather than allow this conversation to continue it's degradation into quips about body parts, I'm going to go and spend my time doing something wholly more important and smoke a cigar.

I'm glad that you enjoy your cigars in what ever fashion you wish and am thankful that at least we can share our love of cigars on this forum, if not or agreement on their best treatment.

All the best.



Marc

Just cause it would not let me post without saying something. Hope you cigar was good

[ValeTudoGuy]

Just cause it would not let me post without saying something. Hope you cigar was good

Thanks for summarising the point I just made to you about humidity when you wrongly claimed that it will decrease with the temperature. It's going to save other people from clicking on the link I just gave to you. Oh and thanks for making assumptions of what I am taking into consideration.

If you can't accept that freezing an object has an effect on its molecules then I truly am wasting my time and efforts continuing this discussion with you. Also the fact that you apparently can't accept that the act of putting a cigar into a freezer, has any basis in this conversation and insist on dragging this conversation back to your bottom further suggests that I am wasting my time.

And I thought we were getting somewhere when you actually accepted that a freezer may ruin a cigar.

Frankly I'm starting to wonder if your some sort of axe grinding troll?

[rascal]

Thanks for summarising the point I just made to you about humidity when you wrongly claimed that it will decrease with the temperature. It's going to save other people from clicking on the link I just gave to you. Oh and thanks for making assumptions of what I am taking into consideration.

I actually explained how the temperature affects the relative humidity as is more complex than just the figure you see, But as I said if you lower the temperature of your humidor your RH will actually fall down to the fact you are less efficient at releasing water from your hydration device with evaporation so as I said you are not taking all factors into account or maybe you just like to spout things for the sake of it but hay ho thats your preference. Ps your link did not explain why the Rh changed with temperature, that is why I took the time to explain it maybe if you had done that you would not have to post the link for people to click


Frankly I'm starting to wonder if your some sort of axe grinding troll?

Now now no need to be calling people names as you can not hold a reasoned adult conversation. Cause when I was younger they had a special name for people that behaved in that manner.

[ValeTudoGuy]

Haha, when have I called you any names? And you are accusing me of an inability to hold an adult conversation.... Seriously?.... The guy who suggests that anus cigars are as relevant as freezer cigars.... In a discussion about freezing cigars no less!

Go on give me a laugh, what name were people who behaved in that manner called?

We might as well end this conversation with a bit more of your potty humour.

[rascal]

Haha, when have I called you any names? And you are accusing me of an inability to hold an adult conversation.... Seriously?.... The guy who suggests that anus cigars are as relevant as freezer cigars.... In a discussion about freezing cigars no less!

Go on give me a laugh, what name were people who behaved in that manner called?

We might as well end this conversation with a bit more of your potty humour.

Maybe you should re-read your above post where you insinuate that I was a troll I don't know how I could make the points anymore clear to you as I put my replys in red under what you had said. Still you miss the most obvious things like you calling me a troll and then you ask what name you called me. There really is no hope for normal conversations in they circumstances if I ever have to reply to you again I will make sure I keep the sentences short with no long words to avoid you becoming confused.

[monkey66]

Now, now play nicely chaps

It is just a discussion. There is a world of debate around this subject and disagreement even among experts.