Cigars as investments?

[AlexG]

Buying cigars in order to later sell them to make a profit doesn't sit right with me. 80% of the reason I smoke cigars is for the fraternity, fellowship and laughs (frivolity?) I get to share with people who have a common passion, like you fine gents. Taking what creates fellowship and using it to make a profit...I dunno, doesn't feel right. I've been very blessed from meeting some generous people. A mate back in Aus was on a 2 year waiting list to get a box of cigars, a Liga Privada Ratzilla. He got a 10 count box, and the next time we met up as a group, he handed out 5. He easily could've flipped them to make some cash, but be saw it that this cigar should be enjoyed by all. Also, The government make it costly enough to buy cigars, why make it harder?
to quote the other Alex;
Rant over.

[Puff Scotty]

Cannot trade my wife,would be evicted from Gabon.

Thank God for that..I've got two more coming already...

[PoohBore]

I've been thinking of giving up the cigar hobby for a while now and came across this thread.

I've been fortunate to pick up whilst on holiday some limited run jars. Would I be ok to run them through an auction from the tax perspective if I was to get out of the hobby completely?

Not wanting to stir up the debate just wondering how to get the best deal for me if I decide to move onto another hobby.

[DavidD]

PoohBore - I think the main points have been made earlier in the thread. Firstly, if your cigars are relatively recent purchases, do you have proof of import duty paid and secondly is persuading an auctioneer to include your lots in a sale. If the first can be satisfied then the second should be simple. Alternatively, you could offer what you have on the Forum with no commission charges.

[monkey66]

Personally i wouldn't worry Pooh, auction or private sale.

Probably you will do better privately unless they are very rare/desirable. The crazy one at the moment is the Cuban release 2009 LGC jar. Market price around ?8-900!

[TJCoro]

Muy Loco!

Finally got around to reading this thread and found it kinda' interesting.

Makes one want to grow his/her own, no doubt....like they did back in the '60s (right senor rocket?)


Boy, Bag Boy

[DavidD]

Finally got around to reading this thread and found it kinda' interesting.

Makes one want to grow his/her own, no doubt....like they did back in the '60s (right senor rocket?)




Boy, Bag Boy

You know, TJ - until about 5 years ago I grew and processed my own pipe tobacco and it was damned good ! I wasn't even a hippy !

[PoohBore]

Personally i wouldn't worry Pooh, auction or private sale.

Probably you will do better privately unless they are very rare/desirable. The crazy one at the moment is the Cuban release 2009 LGC jar. Market price around ?8-900!

I have 2 of those and an empty one :-)

[Puff Scotty]

You could put some pretty flowers in the empty one....

[monkey66]

I have 2 of those and an empty one :-)

Happy days.

[Puff Scotty]

Just my thoughts.....

Investment...investment in what?
Your future smoking pleasure?
Financial Investment?

Any other investment you can think of....I can't...
There are dozens of really wealthy people that can afford to buy & stock what they like & probably do so for their own personal reasons..
Maybe a real collector for instance who wants the proverbial box of each..or having what others can't afford...so that takes them out of the investment for finance field.
There's the chaps that buy for smoking pleasure & realise after 2 cigars they're shite/excellent & put them back into the auction or smoke them.
Obviously this takes them out of the investment for finance field.
Then there is 30 yr old Joe Bloggs, thinks he's got some spare money..so buys all the LE's & RE's & Every big flash release that's currently on offer...
Hell of a risk..my FA wouldn't think I was being very smart, hence outside the investment for finance field.
Then there is the New Hobby enthusiast...buys a Jar, Box, Cab etc. for a short term profit..could be classed as an investment but just drives overall market prices up so long term...would you risk your pension on cigars?
Then your only down to the guys that make real money from cigars...yes you've got it..traders & retailers & if you think you can do it better or make more money that them..jack in what your doing & give it a go..playing on the sidelines without a HUGE amount of dosh will not be an investment...
Only one thing to do...buy what you like to smoke, store & age what you like to smoke..hopefully it will give you the investment in pleasure....

As I said..just my thoughts...I personally think people who are investing in cigars for finance are the ones ruining the cigar market for everyone!!
And no I don't blame retailers for making a living...

[El Catador]

Does the above happen, with wine i can buy a case, leave it a bonded warehouse, then sell it several years later at a profit, if the price falls i can drink it.
Is there a similar market in rare cigars?

The short answer.. 'Yes'.. (with a few provisos).

Contrary to what's already been said, the investment market for wine and cigars is strikingly similar in the majority of key areas..
and, comparing the two, I'd argue that it's far easier for the average novice/enthusiast to see a (short to medium term) return from cigars than wine.

Though I certainly wouldn't class myself as an investor.. (and I'm more of a consumer than a collector), over the years, I've had a reasonably good return from the odd bottle and case I've put by.

The most important aspect required of both markets however.. is an investment in 'time'.
Both in researching and understanding the products and trends, and in playing the 'waiting game'.. and, (in my experience) I'd say cigars are significantly easier to predict (and show a return).

To give you a specific 'real-world' example: if you take a look at last years Cgars auction list you'll see several lots of 'Cohiba 2003 Edicion Limitada Double Corona', all with a guide price of ?1000 and over, now, if memory serves me correctly, upon release (less than 10 years earlier) these were on the market for around the ?300 mark.

To see a 'three-fold' return in less than 10 years is a tall-order in most wine markets (unless you're either really connected, or very clued in).

Returning to the earlier point about research, I'd also argue the trends in cigars are easier to spot, due to the overall market being smaller.
You only have to look back at some of the EL and RE of recent years to realize what's likely to be changing hands at inflated prices in the next few years.

As an example: Take the (highly acclaimed) Montecristo Sublimes of 2008 ('almost' unavailable these days), ?200-ish upon release (and already beginning to climb).. by 2018..? Not difficult to predict they'll be ?500/600 a box.

Other examples to watch (off the top-of-my-head): The (over-rated) Cohiba 1966 LE of 2011, The Edmundo Dantes el Conde (Mexican RE's), the Ramon Allones Phoenicio's (Lebanese RE), and many, many others.

In short.. read the reviews, buy wisely, put them aside and 'keep your hands off 'em'... or.. failing that.. stop f**king about and just smoke 'em!

Either way, you'll be quids in!

[DavidD]

El Catador - Your observations are most valid but a novice wouldn't be able to spot the investment cigars on release whereas someone with a knowledge of cigars, like yourself, would be alerted to their investment potential. It really doesn't matter what you propose to invest your money in - stamps, coins, classic cars, wine or cigars - some fundemental knowledge of the subject is essential otherwise it becomes a 'hit and miss' exercise. It is why many 'investors' are stuck with investments worth a fraction of what they paid and the categories I have mentioned are notorious for uneducated investment and consequent heartbreak. Personally, I support your closing comment - I buy my cigars to smoke and enjoy.

[DavidD]

Well said Scotty - I'm with you all the way. Never begrudge a trader his trade - he's out there to survive and that doesn't just mean making lots of money. In this economic climate it means nurturing your customers, keeping them happy, keeping them coming back and ticking over until more affluent times - if they ever come !

[El Catador]

El Catador - Your observations are most valid but a novice wouldn't be able to spot the investment cigars on release whereas someone with a knowledge of cigars, like yourself, would be alerted to their investment potential. It really doesn't matter what you propose to invest your money in - stamps, coins, classic cars, wine or cigars - some fundemental knowledge of the subject is essential otherwise it becomes a 'hit and miss' exercise.

Indeed, hence the comment:

The most important aspect required of both markets however.. is an investment in 'time'.
Both in researching and understanding the products and trends, and in playing the 'waiting game'..

Regarding how to acquire such knowledge..?

I think it's fair to say, anyone (even a novice) wouldn't have to venture too much further than the UKCF 'Reviews section' (for example), to have access to a comprehensive (and free) source of valuable information.
(Notwithstanding all the other useful advice contained within the site).

To be honest, if someone with an interest in cigars has made it this far.. they're already further down the road then they imagine.