Cigars as investments?

[DavidD]

+1 I agree you have the wrong end of the stick David. Whilst there are items listed non EU resisdents only, I have brought non-EMS vintage cigars at Mitch's cigar auction, then paid duty on the sale & I have a British passport.

You're quite right, of course, and my original post is badly expressed. I had intended to make the point that duty must be paid on all purchases - either before the item is sold (EMS) and under pre 'sticker' regulations or at point of sale and that there is no lawful way of escaping duty.

[Ryan]

Right, sorry for the delay. There's no upset, no need for pm, nothing illegal or boring to be discussed. As I said David, the last thing I wanted was to sound rude but I was in a bit of a rush.
It's not necessary for there to be an "EMS" sticker on boxes for sale or auction in the UK. You can do whatever you want with cigars you bring in legally from outside the UK. I know, regarding the duty-free allowance( 50 from outside EU and 200 or so within), there is the stipulation that they are not for resale within the UK. But after 1, 5 or 10 years in your posession, no revenue commissioner is going to care. Is it going against the literal definition of the law? Possibly, but not in any practicable sense. It certainly wouldn't prevent them being sold at auction.
As other posters have said, plenty of non-EMS boxes sell at auction in the UK. As others have also said, cigars in the last auction listed as "not available to UK bidders" were not in the UK. There would be duty payable on those to get them into the UK, still nothing illegal about it if the duty is paid but for reasons known to him, the auction holder did not want to deal with that.
Reading the thread, regarding some of the posts on duty, some of it is new to me unless I am reading it wrong, Simon, when you say "I have brought non-EMS vintage cigars at Mitch's cigar auction, then paid duty on the sale & I have a British passport." Do you mean you had to pay HMRC duty on cigars (which were already in the UK) you bought at one of Mitch's auctions? If that's the case, that's new to me.

[DavidD]

I think the point is both made and reinforced. Duty must and should be paid on cigars brought into the UK for re-sale. It is a criminal offence to offer for sale tobacco upon which Customs duty has not been paid. I'm also confused about paying duty at an auction sale unless the auctioneer is selling bonded stock under government licence - I understand that these licences were discontinued some time ago.

[Ryan]

I think the point is both made and reinforced. Duty must and should be paid on cigars brought into the UK for re-sale. It is a criminal offence to offer for sale tobacco upon which Customs duty has not been paid. I'm also confused about paying duty at an auction sale unless the auctioneer is selling bonded stock under government licence - I understand that these licences were discontinued some time ago.

Yes duty must be paid on cigars sold in the UK, but do you think revenue cares about someone selling a couple of boxes of 10 or 20 year old cigars?
This

"auctioneers who hold bona fide cigar auctions can only offer EMS labelled cigars post embargo."

Is not true. EMS has nothing to do with duty paid or not. Pre or post embargo has nothing to do with duty. Neither has it anything to do with EMS.

"EU labelling is void at UK auctions because the UK rate of duty has not been paid."

This is also not true, EU labelling does not prove one way or another whether UK duty has been paid. Of course it might depend what you mean by "labelling". Distributer labelling is just a sticker, nothing to do with duty. Not all EU countries have tax stickers on cigar boxes, unlike cigarette packs.

[Simon Bolivar]

Hi Ryan, Rather than duty, I think it's VAT that is charged on the 12.5% Auctioneers charge.

[DavidD]

Thank you Ryan. I did qualify what I meant by labelling in a later post. You still haven't explained how an auctioneer satisfies himself that duty has been paid on cigars offered to him for sale - and I am speaking of a bona fide UK auctioneer. If HMRC decided to inspect an auction of cigars, the auctioneer would be reguired to produce evidence of duty paid or a bond licence. If that evidence could not be produced there is a prima facie offence of 'offering for sale'. But you're right, in reality HMRC don't bother but that doesn't mean that they never would and it doesn't mean that the offence is not actually being committed.

[senor_robusto]

no offense guys, but this is a rather pointless debate! what's the point in worrying if duty/ VAT has been paid on cigars that are 20 or 30 years old and what the auction houses are skimming off? if it's something you're iffy about or are suspect about.... avoid and ignore it and stick to your usual means of acquiring your cigars!

rant over,

alex

[Ryan]

no offense guys, but this is a rather pointless debate! what's the point in worrying if duty/ VAT has been paid on cigars that are 20 or 30 years old and what the auction houses are skimming off? if it's something you're iffy about or are suspect about.... avoid and ignore it and stick to your usual means of acquiring your cigars!

rant over,

alex

Good answer, sums it up.

[Puff Scotty]

Will Swap wife for Cigars...even NC's...

[rokkitsci]

Will Swap wife for Cigars...even NC's...

Excellent! Shall I ship her signed-for post?


ISent from my iPhone by iGeorge

[Puff Scotty]

Excellent! Shall I ship her signed-for post?


ISent from my iPhone by iGeorge

LOL ...I really $ucked that one up! No disrespect..you keep her!

[DavidD]

no offense guys, but this is a rather pointless debate! what's the point in worrying if duty/ VAT has been paid on cigars that are 20 or 30 years old and what the auction houses are skimming off? if it's something you're iffy about or are suspect about.... avoid and ignore it and stick to your usual means of acquiring your cigars!

rant over,

alex

Fair comment, Alex, it's just as well to wrap this one up.

[DavidD]

Will Swap wife for Cigars...even NC's...

If she doesn't winge about smoking indoors I can probably lay my hands on a packet of Manekin or Wills Whiffs and we may well have a deal. I would throw in the bonus of a Warden at no extra charge, of course.

[Davex]

All i wanted to know was if people bought and stored cigars as investments. Cannot trade my wife,would be evicted from Gabon.

[DavidD]

All i wanted to know was if people bought and stored cigars as investments. Cannot trade my wife,would be evicted from Gabon.

You know David, to answer your question directly I believe that some people do buy cigars for investment. However, amongst those who do, I suspect many get their fingers burnt - as with any other form of investment. There are the winners, of course, but I would think that the investment is long rather than medium or short term. There is the interim responsibility of ensuring condition is maintained so it must be something of a labour of love.