Why are Cubans more likely to be plugged than NCs?

[crusse]

There are know bad yrs, the peak production period of '98-'01 are know to be liable to this problem.....a large proporting of the few NC's I have tried, have had a too loose draw for me. That may just be due to me fighting with Cuban tight draws for yrs of course!

I've heard of the 'sad, bad years' and have come across sticks from this period that were plugged or had a tight draw.

I disagree with your claim that NCs have an overly loose draw though. It's probably impossible to create, but my ideal cigar would have the concentrated flavour of a Cuban Lonsdale or Lancero with the draw of a wide-guage NC!

[monkey66]

I think the primary reason is the Quality Control vs Cash challenges of Cuba.

I also think that their may well be a distinctly different approach to tobacco density. Admittedly I have not smoked millions of NC's but I have tried many (in vain search for something I like) and best I can recall none of them have been as fully packed as a perfectly rolled CC.

It should be recognised that the top-end of the NC market have taken consistency to a level far above regular CC's. However the top end of CC's are generally excellent (when was the last time anyone had a plugged Trini/Beheki etc ... despite being a very densely rolled stick).

Along with this I suspect the NC companies err on the side of caution as most customers will accept an easy draw but not a tight one.

It reminds me a little of the artisan coffee roasting world. Some roast houses will often under-roast a little as it is far lower risk than over-roasting (which is easily done).

[Simon Bolivar]

Sound like a good hypothesis to me Monkey66

[nev coss]

Compare Cuban cigars to wine , we put up with plugged cigars just because we expect a couple out of the box to be plugged, would we put up with buying a couple of cases of good wine and finding a couple of bottles were off and undrinkable, the answer would be no,

[Zigatoh]

Wine being in an airtight container kind of helps though eh, if we start taking into account humidity, smoking speed, hell type of cut, and anything else mentioned in the above posts that could effect the draw then the analogy falls over...

Alcoholic liquid in a completely sealed environment, versus leaves open to everything the world has to throw at them?

[monkey66]

Compare Cuban cigars to wine , we put up with plugged cigars just because we expect a couple out of the box to be plugged, would we put up with buying a couple of cases of good wine and finding a couple of bottles were off and undrinkable, the answer would be no,

Got to pick up on this being perhaps not correct and not particularly relevant.

If you buy and age wine you can sometimes get a corked bottle, goes with the hobby. As with a cigar if you are consuming at a restaurant (or recently purchased it) you can rightly send it back. If you have had it for several years the risk is on you.

Secondly the discussion is about the relative differences between quality on CC's and NC's ...not the acceptability of plugged cigars.

We all do have a choice. Some choose NC's because they like their flavour profile and/or consistency. For me unfortunately they do not taste good so I have to make the best of what I enjoy regardless of quality.

I honestly think complaining about the quality of CC's is futile (although the discussion of why is interesting). HSA sure aren't listening to us and are not going to make radical changes any time soon. Personally I would rather 1 magic CC than 10 average NC's ...just my position though. I fully respect those who think the opposite.

[crusse]

For me unfortunately they do not taste good so I have to make the best of what I enjoy regardless of quality....Personally I would rather 1 magic CC than 10 average NC's ...just my position though. I fully respect those who think the opposite.

This is starting to move off topic. The question wasn't "why are NCs better than CCs / CCs better than NCs". Let's try to stick to the question of plugging and tight draws. I accept that this is your honest opinion but the way that you express it means that no forum member (including those who like NCs) would think the opposite! Anyone who really loves cigars would rather have 1 magic cigar than 10 average ones. But I've had amazing NCs and average CCs as well as vice-versa.

Anyway, back to the question of consistency issues....how much difference do you think the introduction of draw testing machines has made to consistency in CCs?

[Dherm]

I started smoking "serious" cigars from June 2012 so im 3 months in now. In that time I smoked just over 20 CC's and can confirm that I've had 2 that were plugged, This really pissed me off as they cost me that little bit more. On the flip-side I smoke on average 12 NC's every week and have never had a plugged one yet. I remember the plugged ones were a HdM and a Cohiba. Make what you will from this.

[monkey66]

Anyway, back to the question of consistency issues....how much difference do you think the introduction of draw testing machines has made to consistency in CCs?

There has been a big journey towards improving quality including the draw machines (2002ish), QC managers, training etc. But for all the reasons mentioned in my first post they will never be (well not for the foreseeable future) consistent like Padron or Tatueje etc on regular production cigars.

The only other possability I can think to add is good NC's have far more bale ageing (pre-rolled tobacco bales) so often have (in one way) several years age off the shelf. When we were chatting with Heorge Padron he insisted that ageing his cigars will bring no advantage and they are at their optimum the minute they hit the shelves. If I remember correctly Pete Johnston (Tatueje) says pretty much the same thing about his cigars. This certainly is not the case for CC's. It was taken as normal (before the cigar boom of the 90's) that respectable cigar shops would automatically both inspect quality and age for a minimum 4-5 years any CC you bought off the shelf. This meant properly aged and selected cigars ...and very unlikely to be plugged. Of course once stocks ran out (and the US allegedly poisoned their crop) they sold young and less selected cigars, we have never really caught up since then.

For generations CC's were aged and selected before consumption (which significantly reduces issues like plugged cigars). CC production style has not significantly changed but the way we handle them from a retail perspective has. Also our expectations as an educated consumer base (with the emergence of the serious NC market) have also changed. Perhaps are expectations are simply mis-aligned with the reality of the product.

Probably worth considering the difference in market dynamics that influence both the NC and CC market as to why the CC quality control has not kept pace.

It is probably fair to say the NC market as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without the US embargo. This has lead to an enormous business opportunity in the US and a highly competitive market-place. The demand to compete with many other shiny-banded sticks on a web-site or shop display is huge. Quality has to be maintained and much innovation has happened in cultivation, rolling consistency and marketing. There have also been (for me) some very negative developments in the name of a consistent cigar. Painting and flavouring the wrappers is a problem for me. If you think it doesn't happen just ask yourself how all these natural products can be of an identical shade of dark, dark brown to black. However good your cultivation technology this is just not the nature of the raw material.

Th CC distributors don't really believe they have any market competition, after all if you want the best cigars in the world they are (according to them) Cuban. So they are not trying to compete with the NC's in most markets. Why is this relevant ...they would need some kind of motivation to change significantly.

So in summary (and possibly a good consideration for any CC/NC discussion). The CC is a product intended for ageing (or at a minimum this is how it has been consumed for decadence and the state it's reputation has been built on), that has inconsistent manufacturing and often higher tobacco density, with owners that see no competition to their product. The NC is a product in a highly competitive, innovative, image-led marketplace that is predominately American.

Why are CC's more likely to be plugged than NC's ...because they are apples and oranges.

[crusse]

Thanks Monkey66 for your very detailed and thoughtful response. This seems like the right point to extend this discussion to the relation between the CC and NC industries....

It sounds to me as if the CC industry is creating problems for its own future. The Cubans still have an advantage in the premium cigar market outside of the US, but NCs are increasingly available even in Europe and are beginning to penetrate European markets.

So I?m not entirely convinced that the Cubans feel that they face no competition. Of course there are a lot of smokers who are very attached to CC?s and who are willing to put up with inconsistency issues, but I suspect that the competitive, innovative, image-led approach that dominates the NC market will play well with the younger generation of new cigar smokers. This generation is used to immediate gratification and is probably more attracted to a product that is good to smoke right off the shelf than to a product that needs to be aged. In fact, I think that the recent proliferation of Cuban LE's and RE's, which often use pre-aged tobaccos, is a response to the demand for immediate gratification and to the market-led approach that you find in the NC industry.

But the problem is that because of lack of tobacco stocks and limited finances, the Cubans are at a disadvantage when it comes to providing a product that is ready to smoke straight away. When you couple this with quality control issues and the increasing availability of NC?s, the future doesn?t look too bright for the CC industry.

I also think that HSA hasn?t handled changes in the industry very well. A lot of time, effort and money have been invested in competing with the NC market-led approach by producing RE?s and LE?s, but for the reasons I?ve mentioned it seems that competing with the NC producers on their own terms is bound to fail. I think that the CC industry would be better off if it focused on better quality control for regular production cigars and emphasised tradition and continuity rather than trying to be as innovative as the NC industry. I suppose that it?s ultimately about playing to your strengths.

[Simon Bolivar]

This may expalin why I seem to have so few plugged sticks compared with what's reported on this site; my avge sticks are now around 5yo.

[monkey66]

Interesting point about new generations of smokers, we shall see how that plays out. From speaking to people who know far better than me I don't think Cuba is worried, or equipped to address it even if they were.

Personally I am not to keen on most EL's. These were not so recent 2000/2001 and not in a response really to anything, just a marketing exercise. There is a big difference between tobacco ageing in bundles (a la EL's and good NC's) and a cigar aged once rolled.

Also (and again just MHO) as a rule I think maduro wrappers (as per EL's and a lot of good NC's) ruin good cigars. The flavour of burnt sugar often totally dominates and masks the core profile. Now this is fine if that is the taste you are looking for but certainly for most EL's they just taste of maduro wrapper. There are a few exceptions for me where the wrapper and filler are balanced to make a whole (Monte Sublime, R and J Duke, Monte Robusto '06, Mag 48) but there are far more which simply taste confused or bland ...Just MHO to be clear.

Personally I don't worry about the demise of the Cuban cigar industry due to the uptake of new smokers being drawn to NC's.

We have heard the same predictions about the French wine industry for the last 30 years. New World wine is far more consistent, has a bigger market share and has far better marketing. Yet premium French wine continues to go up and up in price. There area few non-French investment/collectable wines but a small percentage of that market. The same can be said for cigars. The top end investment/auction/new-money fuck-you market goes higher every year and it is almost exclusively Cuban.

[crusse]

Monkey66: Like you, I'm not too keen on most EL's and rarely buy them. I think that they started off in 2000/2001 as a marketing exercise, but that more and more energy was invested in their production as time went by. And I suspect that this development was a response to a perceived demand for innovation, novelty and image - a demand that was already becoming dominant in the NC market.

For some reason (and this again is just opinion) I find that maduro wrappers often work well on NC's. I think that Padron and Oliva make some excellent maduro cigars. But they just don't taste right on most CC's; as you said, they confuse the flavours. I'm fairly sure that the demand for maduros is something that has been carried across from the NC market to the CC market, but again I think that the Cubans shouldn't bend to this pressure and should rather stick with what they're good at.

You're probably right that the CC industry won't go under completely. But it might change in a way that isn't beneficial to the average cigar smoker. I can easily imagine regular production being largely phased out in favour of increasingly expensive EL's and extortionately priced vintage cigars, meaning that you and I are priced out of the market and only the buyers that fall in your (brilliantly described!) "top end investment/auction/new-money fuck-you" category can afford to buy CCs. Let's hope it doesn't happen any time soon, but I do worry that things are moving in that direction.

[monkey66]

It's an interesting point but I don't thing the CC market will change significantly in the way you hypothesised.

I am not sure of the split (does anyone have some data?) but I would imagine the vast majority of the CC market is regular production. One would imagine a symbiotic relationship that the top-end market only has it's value because the mass-market creates the demand/awareness. If you only have EL's/special editions then these effectively become the regular production cigars.

Also consider the influence of the major distributors (H and F, Altadis, CubaCigar, Fifth Avenue, OOO, Phonecia, Pasific, RAAS to mention but a few). Each of these companies (I think) have an HSA employee on their management board. Most (I think) have a significant ownership percentage with HSA. HSA know where the majority of their (highly prized) foreign currency comes from, and it is regular production CC sales.

Always important to take a step back from (our) afficianado position to understand the reality of the vast majority of CC sales. This is to smokers, who do not collect, age or participate in forums, just smoke 'cubans', or 'cigars'.

HSA, having access to both sales data and 'on the ground' market feedback know that they already sell a premium product at close to the top of what the market will stand. There is no foreseeable way they will significantly change this.